Edge failure of a bastard sword

[John_Clements]

I agree, Bill. I know exactly what you are talking about. These are not cases of sincere and genuine effort to reproduce modern approximation with the attributes of historical weapons so much as manufacturers who will say whatever they can to protect the deficiencies of their product offered to a largely ignorant consumer base.

See my recent thread on my Albion Talhoffer sword for comments on a different attitude, and the expected service life of real swords.

JC

[JeanryChandler]

I believe it was Kevin Cashen, the swordmaker, who said that the heat treatment is in many cases at least as important as the steel.

IMHO the claim that modern steel is generally better and therefore modern replica swords are superior to the real thing is laughably disingenuous. Certainly modern steel is more chemically pure and homogenius, and better for the uses we put it to; making I-beams, car doors, rebar, surgical instruments. But there were a lot of subtleties in making a steel / iron sword with the flexibility and strength to withstand combat, some of which were only gradually perfected over hundreds of years of trial and error.

I don't believe that all you need to do to create such a fine weapon is to take a few measurements of a sword in a museum (without, incidentally, often even knowing if it were really a weapon used in combat or something made for some other purpose) then grind down a steel billet to a similar shape. To do so and then claim that it is equal to or better than the work created by the Masters of the Renaissance or even the late Iron Age for that matter seems silly to me, with all due respect.

Does every modern glass cutter claim to be able to surpass the stained glass at Notre Dame or St. Chapel? Does every modern stone worker feel capable of matching Michelangelo's David? Every painter the ceiling of the Cistene Chapel? Just because these folks did not have TV and Fax Machines doesn't make them stupid, they were as good at what they did in their day as we are in our day, (arguably in many cases far better in fact because their lives depended more often on doing things right, particularly when it came to anything to do with weapons)

There is a wootz (i.e. "damascus") ultra high carbon steel pillar in New Delhi India which has stood for nearly 2,000 years without forming rust. I think the ancients knew a thing or two about metalurgy that we may not have rediscovered yet in the relatively few years that a significant number of modern experts have seriously been trying to do so.

In fact wootz steel is just one example of ancient metalurgy that they are only just able to begin to actually understand let alone reproduce.

I needen't of course also point out the direct link to commercial interests that many of our most respected sword makers have, and the vast collections owned by some of the experts who most aggresively insist on the superiority of modern replicas. Not to impugn them, I appreciate all the public research they have done in sharing their findings and opinions, but it's certainly worth keeping in mind.

As I've often pointed out, it wasn't so much as 5 years ago that it was fairly rare for sword replicas to even be in the ballpark of correct weight of period originals, most tended to be 20 or 30% or more heavier than they should have been. Now we are to believe that prefection has been achieved?

I think we have a long way to go to reach perfection in sword replica manufacture just as we indeed have a LONG way to go in studying and mastering Renaissance fencing techniques.

Jr

[s_taillebois]

Well, alas, a whole range of information on Renn./Med metalworking died with the guilds. And even such variables as the impact strength and rhythm of a water powered cam tripped hammer as compared to modern equipment could be factors. Modern steel is more consistant...but that in itself could be a limitation-insofar as there's likely little impetus to change it. It's very likely some medieval swords could have been superior over others, by such subtle secondary variables as the local coal used, minerals in the water, or even the variability in iron ore deposits.
Unrelated useless information, some of the chemical compounds/processes used in Gothic windows, are still non-duplicable. Even with all the testing and such, there's still arguments as to how "Chartres Blue' was made.

[Matt Easton]

Guys, I do really recommend you read Dr.Alan Williams' book called 'The Knight and the Blast Furnace'.
Some of the things you question are addressed in that work.
There is a lot of information out there to be learned, if metallurgay is your thing, and we have more information on the metallurgy of medieval and renaissance arms and armour that maybe you suspected.
For example, you know Hanko Doenringer wrote about the forging, hardening and tempering of sword blades?

Matt

[s_taillebois]

Will have to look at that book.
Would give the museum's a stroke, but one way to resolve this issue would be to subject samples of medieval steels to the same type of analysis that was done on the plating recovered from the Titanic.
In several texts on the medieval industrial revolution (including the :Medieval Machine") it is mentioned how much effort the armour plated aristocracy exerted to retain control of assets like coal/wood supplies, good locations for water power, and such. Some cavalier/knight's spent much time as a form of proto-industrialist. Along with the church doing the same...makes for a interesting switch in perception as to who these people actually were...as interested in the forge as the blade...