Worse than Hollywood!

For Historical European Fighting Arts, Weaponry, & Armor

Moderators: Webmaster, Stacy Clifford

User avatar
M Wallgren
Posts: 234
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:09 pm
Location: Östersund, Sweden
Contact:

Worse than Hollywood!

Postby M Wallgren » Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:14 pm

Sorry but I have to ventilate this!

Just saw a Documentary from the History Channel called "Barbarians - the Huns".

I could almost stand the "On the bloodstained lands of Ancient Europe a new tidalwave of violence was brought forward bla bla bla yada yada yada" narrative of the dokumentary! The thing that realy annyed me was the kit the extras had!

The Huns = fur, more fur and then a little fur ontop of the fur to ephazise that they had... fur. Looked like they was hired directly on the set of Conan the Barbarian! The swords was some chunks of metal seemingly found at the local scrapyard and vagule shaped in a swordlike manner. Belts and straps made out of hempstrings. To summerize, not even the most winesoaked-17 year old-firsttime-larper would get away with that kit.

The Romans= Plastic scutums vaugly in the correct shape but clearly made out of plastic and in a shade of sunbleached lollypop red. Nitted hemata. And all if the romans had had plastic in a kind of 50 to 150 AD design.

Nice formations af ten romans before the battlescene but then scattred fighting in a way that makes a soccergame more intensive and crowded. Handbagging and strikes at plastic shields, soundtracked by somebody hitting a fork to a pot.

The dates and campaines and stuff was probally correct but that I missed out of shear anger at the view tis gave the audience. It´s like doing a dokumentary on the Battle of El Alamein with the brittish troops in redcoats and the German soldiers in Landsknecht kit.

Sorry again for the rambling! But isn´t this sad. I hope I did not offend somebody by this.

Martin
Martin Wallgren,
ARMA Östersund, Sweden, Studygroup Leader.

User avatar
William Savage
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:06 pm

Re: Worse than Hollywood!

Postby William Savage » Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:23 pm

I know exactly how you feel Martin. The best non WW2 footage on the history channel is the black and white battle scenes from 50 year old movies. Niether are accurate but at least thats entertaining.

I got a hist. channel documentary on the Templars for Christmass, and it led me to the conclusion that some historians make up theories for attention.

User avatar
Patrick Hardin
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2002 5:25 pm
Location: Memphis, TN

Re: Worse than Hollywood!

Postby Patrick Hardin » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:58 pm

Of course they make stuff up for attention. If they didn't come up with "new perspectives" on why stuff happened, none of them would ever get any notoriety, because everybody would always be going over the same stuff over and over again. Of course, this has positive consequenses when these ideas are well-researched, organised and make sense, but it's a real sickening shame to see crackpot ideas paraded around like they're the greatest theory of all time, just because some little historian wants their fifteen minutes of fame. It's also a shame to see historical events portrayed so irresponsibly, especially by a channel that is supposed to show history, not farce.

Patrick Hardin
"Few men are born brave. Many become so through training and force of discipline."

---Vegetius

User avatar
William Savage
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:06 pm

Re: Worse than Hollywood!

Postby William Savage » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:07 pm

it's a real sickening shame to see crackpot ideas paraded around like they're the greatest theory of all time, just because some little historian wants their fifteen minutes of fame

Thats what I was reffering to, and when they claim they can support their theoreys with facts. Like saying that all the templars were homosexuals because they had big parties and shunned wemon???? thats the kind of stuff that upsets me, not when historians are led to conclusions from facts, but when history theorists are led to facts from conclusions.

User avatar
SzabolcsWaldmann
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:28 am
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Re: Worse than Hollywood!

Postby SzabolcsWaldmann » Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:59 pm

Well, double incorrect.

There was a folk, called the barbarians, but they inhabited an created babylon, as far as I know.

The huns were surely not people, you would equip with the term barbarian, not in the modern, nor the old sense of the word. just try http://grozerarchery.com , a hungarian site for reflexbows, there you have a little info about the Huns and what they looked like.

As for the channels, NG is sometimes correct, but Discovery... they telkl whatever the people want to hear. They talk about UFOs as if they were real, about knights never taking a bath (RIDICULOUS! The knightly stronghold of the Teutons, Marienburg, had 5 Saunas, 5 turkish baths and countless bathrooms.....) und such unrealistic [censored]. Same boes for History Channel.
My answer is: do not watch television <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
Take up a longsword <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Szab
Order of the Sword Hungary

User avatar
Nick Hames
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Worse than Hollywood!

Postby Nick Hames » Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:15 pm

<img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> Amen to that!! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Logan Weed
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:47 pm
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: Worse than Hollywood!

Postby Logan Weed » Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:06 pm

The huns were surely not people,


*gasp!*

User avatar
Derek Gulas
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2002 3:04 pm
Location: Washington USA

Re: Worse than Hollywood!

Postby Derek Gulas » Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:49 am

Logan:

"*gasp!* "

no no no!

Like this:

"The huns were surely not people, you would equip with the term barbarian"

-sorry, just clarifying
Close combat - bringing us together.

Derek
ARMA, Seattle

User avatar
Jeremy Martin
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 6:51 am
Location: Shreveport, LA !!USA!!

Re: Worse than Hollywood!

Postby Jeremy Martin » Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:19 pm

The huns weren't people. They were machines sent from the future to eliminate John Conner, the leader of the resistance.


Maybe it should read: "The huns were surely not people you would equip with the term, 'barbarian'."


Besides, everyone knows the huns wore GAP.
"I've had brain surgery, whats your excuse?"

Jay Vail
Posts: 558
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 2:35 am

Re: Worse than Hollywood!

Postby Jay Vail » Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:45 am

what gorgeous bows. I want one.

User avatar
s_taillebois
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:29 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Worse than Hollywood!

Postby s_taillebois » Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:45 pm

Oh well, misinformation. And most won't ever notice the errors. Also each period tends to have it's fantasies and delusions of another times weapons, warfare, or even appearence. Goes way back, ie, Altdorfer's paintings of Alexander's battles, or even the Tympanum's at places like Vezelay. (at least with such as Altdorfer's work, it shows the weapons of the period, albeit not Alexanders) In our society, very few use (or have even handled a sword) so no direct reference.
Steven Taillebois

User avatar
Justin Lompado
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:34 pm

Re: Worse than Hollywood!

Postby Justin Lompado » Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:23 pm

Well said Patrick. Since I started researching WMA and historically accurate weapons, I've been amazed by how many fallacies are out there. On television, unfortunatley, we can expect some exaggeration, fallicy and embellishment for effect, even from the History Channel and others with like programs, because eafter all they need to make shows people will watch. For example, I recently viewed a show on ancient siege weapons, which focused on a huge trebuchet used by Edward I against the Scots, known as War-Wolf. The Scottish battles of Edward Longshanks occured in the late 13th and early 14th centuries, and in the show they showed knights riding near a castle in 16th century jousting equipment and dress! They were even carrying modern wooden lances that you would see at any Renn fair.

The problem, unfortunatley, extends beyond television. As I said before, television can be expected to contain some fallicies. However, I happen to own history books that also contain gross misconceptions. In my studies of martial arts from around the world, as well as their accompanying military histories and culture, it seems that either books/articles detail martial soundess or military correctness, but rarely are the two found accuratley combined. When that happens, you get a good book on battle history and armies but the same common misconceptions about weaponry. Some examples will highlight this. In one of my books there is a section on the Vikings. Covering the bottom of two pages is an illustration of a Viking raid on the English coast, and in the forefront there is a Viking warrior with a typical sword and shield. Then, right next to the picture is a small paragraph, which states "A viking sword was heavy and was swung in a wide arc." On top of that, the artist's rendering of the weapon is surprisingly accurate, and yet they still assume the sword to be unwieldly! It makes you realize that so many historians have not even bothered to examine such subjects to any real degree. Another book I have, which chronicles major battles over the last 5,000 years, shows pictures of some antique weapons in a section on the Franks. The Frankish sword they show is in excavated condition, severley indented by wear. The book has a little caption above the sword, which reads "Paralell edges gave the sword power but made it heavy." As if a single-handed Frankish sword was a ponderous weapon. I also possess a great book on the martial culture and history of Japan, which makes like comments about swords and especially armor: "In general, the materials eployed in the manufacture of armor reflected the characteristic preoccupation of Japanese armorers with speed and functionality, especially when compared with the massive suits of armor worn by European feudal knights and lords." Also, regarding knights: "His lances were frequently broken upon contact, forcing him to resort to axes, maces, or cumbersome swords when battling an armored foe or those cohorts of lightly armed serfs employed as infantry during the early feudal era in Europe. In the East (and this is inserted in this book from another) 'All of the weapons used were much lighter and more manageable; the lances were shorter, lighter and better balanced, the swords were of better quality and better adapted for use at close quarters.'" Honestly, this sort of thing is really getting old. How long does it have to be before a good book on a subject other than WMA or Western military history comes out that doesn't suffer from the same basic and overdone misconceptions? What's more, in this case, the book is incredibly unbiased in other areas regarding the realtionship of Eastern and Western warrior philosophies, so it was extremely dissapointing when I learned how unenlightened they were about European weapons. It also continues to dissapoint me when, as Mr. Clements has noted many times, I think how many people in the West today (including the authors of the books I've quoted here) are far more ignorant of their own martial traditions than those of Asia. Hopefully this is a problem that will be rectified in the near future, for it is a serious injustice to the people who died in the past to continue to, in essence, degrade them in the embellishment and praise of others.
Una mente tranquillo da vita alla carne, ma passione fa i ossi decomposizione

User avatar
SzabolcsWaldmann
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:28 am
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Re: Worse than Hollywood!

Postby SzabolcsWaldmann » Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:34 am

You know what? I miss something even more, than military accuarncy: and that is the philosophy and ethic of the knights. I recently focused on medieval writings about honour, will, and strength of mind and found of course many things in which the Samurais (To take the all-known example) thought alike to knights. There were even thoughts which were far deeper in my opinion than any Japaneese essay (and I read some, belive me! Strating with Hagakure of course). And then, listen to this, I have a modern book of Iaidó (written by an european guy with the pseudonym Sei Shin) where it says: "Where the medieval knights got their weapons from their fathers with the words: "Go and conquer, steal and kill!", the Samurais got their swords with the words: "Go and protect what`s ours" ".
Well, thats enraging me a quite a bit.


Szab
Order of the Sword Hungary

User avatar
s_taillebois
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:29 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Worse than Hollywood!

Postby s_taillebois » Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:51 am

And no doubt the Cid, Loyola, Joan Pouselle, St. Louis and company are shaking their heads in the afterlife.
On expecting accurate research on western weapons by many academics, mayhaps wise not to expect too much. (And since the TV contingent gets their information from some of that group, the problem multiplies)
First, expressing interest in weaponry is an oft inadvisable act at some colleges. Even weapons a half a millenium back. And there can be a bias against studying the admirable aspects of the cavalier tradition...due to it's ties to fuedalism and etc. And those aspects make such studies (at least unbiased ones) unlikely from institutions operating from a Neo-Marxist/Deconstructionist/Anti-European and etc perspective.
So much of the research on the matter will have to come from elsewhere, be it from people like M. Clement's,Oakeshott, and like others or from well versed 'amateur scholars'.
Steven Taillebois

User avatar
JeanryChandler
Posts: 978
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 1:45 am
Location: New Orleans, aka northern Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: Worse than Hollywood!

Postby JeanryChandler » Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:13 pm

I understand your sentiment here and I sympathise. Certainly the knights of Europe were as courageous and in many ways as honorable as any other warrior class anywhere else in the world. And certainly the reputation of the oh so honorable Samurai is as wildly exagerated as the prowess of their, according to some, supernatural katanas. The masters they served and the things they did were every bit as ruthless and cynical as any European Lord.

On the other hand, I think one has to be careful, it is very easy and tempting to go too far in the other direction with this. I think it is a big mistake to look to our ancestors of 500 years ago and more to find heroes matching our current cultural concepts of ethical and moral idealism. I have seen similar mistakes made among Roman re-enactors. We can respect them for their audacity, for their courage and skill, without trying to bend the facts to make them fit our own preferred concepts of who we wish they were.

Certainly there was such a thing as Chivalry. In practice, as opposed to in the lyrics of minstrels, it amounted to a creed of professional courtesy between members of a warrior caste. It advoacted the ransoming of prisoners of suitible status, rather than their immediate massacre. It did not necessarily have anything to do with protecting the poor or rescuing Damsels in distress, at least (again) in practice, let alone righting the wrongs of the age, like some comic book character.

I think trying to twist a historical figure into such a modern hero distorts our understanding of who these people were just as much as vilifying them as the gestapo of the Middle Ages the way some marxist revisionist might do. They were what they were, and that may not fit too well with current conceptions of morality or ethics, or even honor in some cases. You can of course find some genuine idealists, patrons of just causes lost and otherwise, but I think these were as few and far between then as they are today, perhaps even more so.

These folks were incredibly brave, spirited, and driven with a will we can barely understand to not only survive the myriad lethal dangers of their epoch, but to rise above and perform deeds which ring in history, and create artefacts we can still marvel at today. We needn't try to turn them into anything different than what they were in order to admire them.

Jr
"We can't all be saints"
John Dillinger


Return to “Research and Training Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 37 guests

 
 

Note: ARMA - The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts and the ARMA logo are federally registered trademarks, copyright 2001. All rights reserved. No use of the ARMA name or emblem is permitted without authorization. Reproduction of material from this site without written permission of the authors is strictly prohibited. HACA and The Historical Armed Combat Association copyright 1999 by John Clements. All rights reserved. Contents of this site 1999 by ARMA.