Sword Durability

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Craig Peters
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Re: Sword Durability

Postby Craig Peters » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:34 pm

Such statistics should not be caculated from the surviving antics because that might favor the least used swords.


Bill,

I think this is a dangerous assumption. It's based almost entirely upon supposition, and my guess is that you don't have much (or any) evidence to back it up. As Matt pointed out, many of the antique swords that we have came from the sites of known medieval battlefields. Even if it's not clear that the sword came from such a site, apart from court swords, we have to really be careful suggesting that surviving swords were the least used. Another explanation might be that many of the surviving swords were well constructed, hence they stood up to the abuse, while lesser quality weapons were destroyed. It entirely depends upon the perspective one takes. And because these ideas are based upon perspective and reasoning, rather than concrete historical evidence, they are generally bad assumptions to make.

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Re: Sword Durability

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:58 pm

But what about edge damage from battle? I'm certainly not an expert on primary medieval sources on the subject of battles and wars, but I don't know of any sources off-hand that even mention edge damage that occurred to a sword. If someone knows of an instance, correct me.


There are several anecdotes of swords specifically being nicked or dinged in the Viking sagas. I don't remember which ones in particular off hand but I recall there was one story for example where a guy borrowed a famous sword from his uncle for a duel, and then got in big trouble when, in winning the duel, he badly nicked the edge of the sword.

I think the reason you hear about this in the Viking sagas is because they refer to a time and a culture in which individual swords were considered valuable heirlooms often with their own names and histories, so the fate of a specific weapon was an important enough part of the story to be mentioned.
Also, they were written by descendents of the Vikings themselves in Iceland, folks who shared this value system to some extent.

The Greeks and Romans who wrote most of the history we have before this time by contrast viewed weaponry in a much more utilitarian manner, and the same could be said to some extent of the Europeans in the later Middle Ages and Renaissance when certainly, due to increasing mass production of weapons in general and swords in particular were available in much more quantity and for a much lower equivalent value in cash or artifacts than in the Dark Ages and before. So it can be assumed that in acounts of later battles damage to weapons may not have been recorded, after they were too dinged up they were probably replaced.

Also, Oakeshott does record some damage to some weapons in use as late as the 17th century which he believed was due to use (to cite one example XVIII.6). He also for example points out some weapons which were apparently re-sharpened so much, probably in many cases honing off dings, that the shape of the blades changed dramatically and even became convex (ex XVIII.5)

The big question remains: how quickly did that damage accrue? A sword which survived a massive all day battle may have been fairly unusual, but I have to wonder if per Bills original point, we should honestly expect that most good quality swords of these periods would have been severely damaged upon striking the first blow, as many of our best replicas still can be.

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Re: Sword Durability

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:06 pm

I'm not sure how often a given medieval sword would have seen battle, and for how long it would have been reused, but if it's profile could be altered that radically, that would suggest that edge damage is very common and might have occurred for a variety of reasons.


I'm sorry I didn't notice this comment befor I wrote my first reply... but while I agree that swords outlines were changed radically (as I said myself) I don't necessarily agree with your apparent conclusion that it means damage accrued rapidly. Remember, in the Medieval period, especially the earlier you go in History, swords were often kept literally for generations. Sword blades are not as hard as knife blades and must be honed more often to remain sharp, so a lot of sharpening is going to occur dings or no dings. Again, I do suspect edge damage occured, I think we just don't know how fast.

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Re: Sword Durability

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:24 pm

Sword were rarely the primary weapon, they were a *sidearm*. Like a pistol. The assault rifle of the time was usually the lance, spear, pollaxe, bow, crossbow etc. (Ignoring the light cavalry/hussars of the renaissance and after).
In most battles the majority of the loosers ran away, they were not slain during the battle proper (and the exceptions to this, where large numbers were killed, like Agincourt and Towton were instances where many prisoners were killed after surrendering).
Therefore we have a situation whereby most of the swords on a typical medieval battlefield might not actually get used... And even if they did get drawn, how long do most mortal encounters on a battlefield last? A couple of seconds maybe, before being disengaged from your enemy or one of you being incapacitated, winning or one of you being swamped/outnumbered.


This is kind of misleading. It is true that a sword was effectively a sidearm in the sense that other weapons were used first, this is true even going back to Classical times, but that allusion breaks down when compared to modern firearms. A sidearm in the 20th century might never be used at all in battle, since you can keep using your primary weapon. In the Classical era through the Dark Ages, the primary weapon would be some form of javelin (specifically the armor piercing pilum and plumbata for the Romans) or other thrown weapon (fransisca axe for example) for some German tribes. In the later Medieval period and Renaissance, the lance and later the pistol (for so-called Ritter knights) were primary weapons for knights.

But in all these cases, the primary weapon was quickly used up forcing the combattants to finish the fight with the sidearm. A Celtic warrior or Roman Legionairre would throw a few (usually 3) javelins of one form or another, and then engage with the sword to actually finish the fight. Of course few European knights indeed fought with crossbows let alone bows from horseback. And while laymen are often not aware, I'm sure you are Matt that a knights lance, (even the combat lance as opposed to the one used in tournaments), was essentially also a throw-away weapon very likely to break upon each charge. A few lances may have been carried by a knights squire, after they were used up it was down to the sword, wasn't it?

Later cavalry in the case of Polish hussars and the like were sometimes totally dependent on their sword as a primary weapon.

Yes some dismounted knights particularly in the later Renaisssance preferred to use weapons lke poll-axes as primary weapons, but really in most cases we are back to the idea of the sword getting heavy use especially from horseback.

Medieval swords have been well studied metalurgically by Dr.Alan Williams, who has pulished the seminal a massive work 'The Knight and the Blast Furnace'. They are of similar hardness on average to modern replicas (50 Rockwell), and so prone to similar surface damage,


I've yet to read this interesting sounding book, but let me ask you, does it deal primarily with the technical aspects of forging swords, or the economics surrounding the production of weapons and the role it played in the politics of the period? I know that rockwell hardness is only one of many ways to measure the important properties of a sword. Many of the cheaper replica manufactuers brag about the rockwell hardness of their weapons as part of their marketing, as if it was a be all -end all. That only scratches the surface (no pun intended) and I would constest your assertion that we know a great deal about the metalurgy and construction of Medieval swords. There are many subtleties we do not yet grasp. I would cite as just one example again the 2001 article in Scientific American on the surprising role tiny traces of Vanadium played in ultra high carbon Wootz (or "Damascus") steel, as revealed in electron microscope analysis.

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Re: Sword Durability

Postby Craig Peters » Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:36 pm

That's true Jeanry, but remember too that even a fairly dull sword can cut effectively. Honing was probably less of a cause of wear on the edge than you suggest here. The other thing to consider is that I think one would be most likely to hone weapons right before a military conflict. I'm not sure that constantly sharpening and resharpening during periods of peace would be practical, especially if the sword was not being used. If this is the case, I don't think swords were being necessarily being resharpened all that frequently.

However, I must stress that the latter part of my discussion about sharpening in peace time versus war is purely speculation, and as such should be viewed with the same suspicion as speculation that many historical surviving swords were among the least used.

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Re: Sword Durability

Postby david welch » Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:45 pm

Some of the advise was to just sharpen the last hand width or so. That wouldn't have changed the profile so much as just eventually made the blade shorter.
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Re: Sword Durability

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:59 pm

I agree there would be no reason to hone a sword unless there was a possibility you were going to have to use it, (really after each use but effectively probably every time you were going to buckle it on with the possibility of having to cut with it.)

The thing you may not be considering is the immense number of small, medium and even large battles and skirmishes which went on almost constantly throughout Europe in the Medieval and Renaissance periods, not to mention street fights, muggings, highway robbery, uprisings, riots, brawls, insurrections, raids, family feuds, judicial combat, private duels etc. and etc. And also remember you would probably hone the weapon every time you buckled it on to ride out and face even the possibility of a fight. This is true for most people but especially a knight, though of course it depends exactly when and where and whom the knight owed fealty to, if anyone. Read a good period overview like Barbara Tuchman's Distant Mirror to get just a little taste of the chaos of these times!

I agree there is a certain amount of speculation here but I do think that generally speaking, weapons got a lot of use in the broad period in question.

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Re: Sword Durability

Postby Craig Peters » Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:41 pm

Jeanry, you have a good point. Medieval society was relatively dangerous, and there was a good possibility of a sword being frequently used in minor skirmishes and fights. Another question of relevence, (that I'm not qualified to answer), is about how much of a blade is lost assuming it is simply resharpened without any edge damage having occurred? It would seem to me that even with resharpening, it would take a long time to alter a blade such that a type Xa appears to be a type XII, which would also suggest a significant amount of the change in blade profile was due to resharpening a sword to remove edge damage.

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Re: Sword Durability

Postby Bill Tsafa » Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:46 pm

David,I had read somewhere that swords were only sharpend on the eve of battle. This was to prevent the exposure of new underlying metal to oxygen and having rust start to set in on new edges needlessly. But... like Craige said you may never know when you will have to use it.

My personal testing has also shown that a dull sword can make some very deep cuts especialy against soft targets. My Windlass Classic Medieval was shipped dull. Before I sharpened it I did some test cutting with the dull blade on the very same cardboard box it was shipped to me in. I had no trouble making deep cuts even with the dull edge. The box I think is tougher then skin. I should mention that this is a long and wide blade with a thin cross-section. After I sharpened it I saw the blade was able to travel further along the cardboard before the resistance of the box stopped it.

Jeanry, you mentioned two things that interest me a great deal. The use of swords by the Roman calvery and medieval blast furnaces. From my research I have learned that Romans did not use Sirrups and thus did not use lances in their charges. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think their main weapon was the Spatha at about 26 inches. I know that Roman use of Calvery was minimal, especialy early on. I am wondering about the strength of the the Spatha and how it held up in calvery charges prior to the Medieval and Renaisance advances in metalurgy and the invention of the blast furnace. How much weaker was the Roman Spatha or how much stronger were Medieval Swords used in calvery charges???

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Re: Sword Durability

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:46 pm

Jeanry, you mentioned two things that interest me a great deal. The use of swords by the Roman calvery and medieval blast furnaces. From my research I have learned that Romans did not use Sirrups and thus did not use lances in their charges. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think their main weapon was the Spatha at about 26 inches. I know that Roman use of Calvery was minimal, especialy early on. I am wondering about the strength of the the Spatha and how it held up in calvery charges prior to the Medieval and Renaisance advances in metalurgy and the invention of the blast furnace. How much weaker was the Roman Spatha or how much stronger were Medieval Swords used in calvery charges. Mind everyone am not saying that I know. I am asking a question.


I was really speaking of Roman infantry, as in the period before the dawn of the Medieval, say arguably the battle of Hastings at 1066 AD, infantry was arguably the strongest fighting arm of the land, for precisely the reason you mention of the difficulties with the saddle and other issues of horse kit.

These collectively seemed to prevent the use of heavy cavalry through most of the Classical era, with a few notable anomolies such as the famous Companions of Alexander of Macedon.

That said, the Romans did have cavalry, often mercenary ("auxiliary" in Roman parlance) and made use of heavy cavalry in the late Imperial period especially (200-450 AD). They did also fight from horseback with swords.

This is a subject of a lot of argument still, but the Romans got the stirrup and high saddle, and thus heavy Cavalry, from either the Goths (who used heavy cavalry successfully against Rome at the battle of Adrianople in 378 AD where Emperor Valens was killed) or the Sarmatians, or some combination of the two, or from the (Persian) Sassanids or from the Huns, depending on who you believe. But either way around the end of the 3rd century AD they were employing heavily armored heavily armed shock cavalry capable of fighting hand to hand.

Bit of background, first thing to keep in mind is that when you are speaking of Rome, it pays to be specific since the Western Roman State alone persisted for over 1000 years, depending on when you date the fall.

The Romans had Iron, probably from the Celts, by the late Republic period, and began producing increasingly "steely iron" by the Mid - Imperial (C. 150 AD). Up to this point their primary 'sidearm' was the Gladius, a medium-short (30" or so) cut-thrust sword developed from the Gladius Hispaniensis adopted from Celts in Iberia (Spain) in Republican times. It gradually evolved from an elegant wasp waisted form into the utliliatrian strait edged, triangular pointed type found at Pompeii from the 1st century AD. The Gladius kept being used until at least the 3rd century, Roman historians insisting that it was vastly superior to the larger Celtic type sword (also used by Germans and other European barbarians) but it was interestingly enough Roman cavalry which started adopting a very similar weapon which we are now calling the Spatha. This was in the neighborhood of 34-36", and like the Celtic weapon similar to an Arming sword except without a heavy iron pommel to counter balance it and without a prominent cross-guard to protect the hand.

It's heavily argued whether the Roman forms influenced the Celtic and later German forms or visa versa.

The Romans did not apparently understand the role of Carbon in their steel, believing the heat treatment was the key, and were obsessed in an Alchemistic kind of way with using different quenching solutions, everything was tried from blood to wine to rose water to beer, to the very Roman minded idea of using the living body of a slave to quench the blade.

It's highly contraversial whether the Celts knew the actual role of carbon or precisely how to introduce it but based on modern tests (and contrary to the claims of contemprary Roman writers) their metalurgy seems to have been better.

All steel production at this time was highly problematic as it had to be laboriously done by piecing together tiny ingots of iron of different qualities usually made from bog deposits. The technique of pattern welding rose up to make good quality weapons with this bad material (you'll have to look that one up on your own as it's a whole side subject full of contraversy and big with sword collectors)

By the very early Middle Dark Ages crucicble steel began to arrive, allowing much more homogenius (chemically similar) ingots to be made, followed in rapid succession by major advances in water wheel and reduction gear technology which led to a kind of medieval automation of things like trip hammers and bellows needed to get forges hot enough (over 2000 degrees F) to smelt iron. This is when major quantities of good homogenius steel began to become increasingly common all over Europe.

Jr

Edit: PS. All cavalry I know of including Roman cavalry used "lances", in the technical sense of a spear used for thrusting from horseback. The spatha was still a secondary weapon in that sense. The couched use of the lance that you think of from depictions of knights didn't arguably start being used until the 11th century.

The quality of Roman steel could probably be considered inferior to Medieval steel, particularly after the various technical innovations of the 12th century.
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Re: Sword Durability

Postby Shane Smith » Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:51 pm

Quoted from above;
"But what about edge damage from battle? I'm certainly not an expert on primary medieval sources on the subject of battles and wars, but I don't know of any sources off-hand that even mention edge damage that occurred to a sword. If someone knows of an instance, correct me. "

Not a correction per se', but I have handled many original period blades that do show edge damage of varying degree's.
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Re: Sword Durability

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:59 pm

It would seem to me that even with resharpening, it would take a long time to alter a blade such that a type Xa appears to be a type XII, which would also suggest a significant amount of the change in blade profile was due to resharpening a sword to remove edge damage.


Good point the edge geometry (flat vs chisel shaped etc.) as well as hardness are probably also major factors in this as well. It would undoubtedly vary quite a bit type by type, region by region and era by era.

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Re: Sword Durability

Postby Bill Tsafa » Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:27 pm

Thank you Jeanry, that cleared up a lot of points that I did not come accross in my personal research. By chance do you happen to know if those long spatha's often broke as a result of calvery charges because of not having carbon present in the iron? That is something I tried very hard to find but was unable.

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Re: Sword Durability

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:54 pm

Roman swords would have had at least some carbon, it's just that they were not apparently aware of the precise role carbon played in the development of steel.

I'm not a smith or a physicist but I would guess that lower content steely iron would actually be less brittle than higher carbon steel so it would probably bend rather than break, as was sometimes described in incidents allegedly among the Celts and other Barbarians by contemporary Roman writers.

You should check the forums on Myarmoury there have been some excellent leading edge discussions on iron swords from the Classical era there which were fascinating. You might also query some of the blacksmiths who post to sword forum, and finally for all things Roman I'd reccomend contacting Matthew Amt from the Roman Legio XX re-enactment group. He is very friendly and willing to answer questions, and knows an immense amount about Roman military kit from the early to mid Imperial period.

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Re: Sword Durability

Postby s_taillebois » Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:31 pm

One somewhat obtuse way of checking the percentage of
wrecked or worn swords would be to check clergy records on altar donations. At times, after someone survived a fight, or was wounded in such a way to preclude further sanguine activity-they would leave their sword at the altar in an act of thanks (or hoping for forgiveness). As has been mentioned before, Loyola did this, and some of the hardware obtained by Joan Pouselle's followers was obtained as a result of this tradition.
Clergy usually left them in storage, although on some occasions they did give them to the less affluent man at arms, or knight. (I'd wonder how many of the weapons various scholars have studied were preserved because of this condition)
As Jeanry has so clearly noted, the armoured aristocracy did tend to view these weapons as consumables. To the level that, in fuedal wills and such, they were very careful to keep control over the resources needed to make more of the same kind of weaponry. For example, the nobility weren't necessarily fond of forests just because of the hunting and locations for dalliances-they needed the wood resources to ensure the furnaces could be fed. And they took the same care with iron deposits and other needed resources. (which was one of the reasons for the social tensions of the 100 year war period-other people wanted these resources for other things...like importing glass...
Also the routine sharpening wasn't usually done until just prior to use (for battlefield weapons). This point is reinforced with one of the stranger beliefs of the period. They believed that demons, witches and such, magically dulled blades. Obviously if they were routinely sharpening these weapons, this belief probably wouldn't have taken hold.
Apologies for the late response to some of the concepts in this thread...oh well...some witch was dulling my computer keys.
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