Future of Western Martial Arts

[Justin Lompado]

I believe I read somewhere (maybe on this site) a sentence that commented on the popularity of EMA in America, and that in the future it might not be so uncommon to find longsword schools in America the way we find karate dojos or the like. I would assume that everyone has at least given some thought to the future of WMA in America (and everywhere for that matter), and the fact that when we have analyzed, interpreted and translated enough so that accurate instruction could be given on a scale such as that of EMA, the opening of such schools would be possible, in order to spread the education of WMA. However, one of the chief points made by exponents of traditional EMA and even us, is that the proliferation of EMA schools has led to the degredation and "sportification" of their fighting arts, and that they do not actually represent the disciplines they are descended from. They have in fact become "watered down". While we practice the oppostite and devote our time to as accurate and realistic a re-creation as possible, can we guarantee the same once we are able to, in effect, to follow the precedent, and "commercialize" our martial arts? Or, do we prevent that, not "commercialize" at all, and take WMA in a completley different direction? Not to be pessimistic, but is this commercialization (for lack of a better term) not at least a possibility? It has taken about 50 years for EMA to reach their current popularity status, and we can only speculate where WMA will be in 50 years. I realize we may be far off from that, but I can't help contemplating the future somewhat.

[Will Adamson]

Forgive me if I start going on a rant about Taekwondo. I've been doing it for several years and have many misgivings about its marketing.

Like so many martial arts, the aspects that you usually judge the merits of an art by are actually entirely dependant on the individual school owner.

Now for my TKD predicament.

The school that I have attended for the past years is geared toward character development in kids and those who are not necessarily athletes. Few of us are really great fighters, but our impact on the kids is really the most rewarding part of instructing.

The real problem is at tournaments. These things are high on flash and tricks. "Weapons" are constucted to be shiny, and to make cool noises when spun. Sparring (which is in the Olympics <img src="/forum/images/icons/mad.gif" alt="" /> ) has an entirely subjective scoring criteria. I have won bouts that I thought I'd lost as well as lost ones that I thought I'd won. The same thing goes for bouts that I've watched. This is what the kids see as being to height of the sport/art (whatever). Granted, alot of that flashy stuff is really difficult. But difficulty does not a martial art make! Sparring is supposed to be a way to get practitioners to think about how they would handle a real fight. But the manipulation of the rules to make it more amenable to the IOC killed most of its effectivness.

The best part is breaking boards and bricks. But some are finding a way to screw that up too.

Now about marketing. As long as it isn't cheesy...I'd say use whatever works. Of course most marketing for TKD is VERY cheesy. Getting people into anything is about making it available and exciting. This can be done without 'selling out' but I doubt most WMA pratictioners would put up with the amount of changes needed to surpass EMA. In fact I would probably be totally turned off to either if a battle of cheese began. One thing that would need to be done to narrow the gap would be some sort of competition. This goes against the spirit of ARMA, but I can tell you that most Americans are not really interested in an academic study of a martial art. I would really prefer that there not be a regulated form of competition.

Perhaps if this comes up in the future at an ARMA event (if my application is accepted) I can share some of my experiences with y'all when I'm no longer an active TKD student.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hmmmm....difficulty. To develop skill in MMA, WMA, Muay Thai or western boxing is hard. To develop skill as a good Wushu performer is arguably just as hard and takes the same effort. The difference between the arts is when you put the very athletic and acrobatic Wushu dude up against Chuck Lidell and watch what happens. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

As I see it, WMA can take 2 paths.

1. It can go the TKD, Wushu, Taiji route. Lots of elaborate forms. Unrealistic sparring. Focus on character development rather than actual fighting skill.

2. It can go the MMA, BJJ, competitive Judo, western boxing route. Spar all the time with relatively limited rules. Simple one piece techniques (mostly). No real chi cultivation or character development (besides tangential stuff) focus. Primary focus on developing a skill you can realistically use on another resisting competent human opponent.

The difference is in makeing realistic competitive sparring with relatively limited rules (yes, you can choke out the guy on the ground after you deal with his sword) just as much a part of the art as the scholarship aspect. As soon as you get away from that, you get flash but things that don't work on real people.

If it takes the first path, WMA is doomed to follow the fate of modern sport fencing (very athletic, not so usable), only with longswords and not foils. If we take the 2nd path (which is what I love so much about ARMA) then we can offer essentially MMA with swords, knives and staves thrown in to add to the fun.

Which way it will go? Who knows. I would wager that some in WMA will go one way and some the other.

[Will Adamson]

Whoops! Made a mistake. I meant to say that WMA practitioners would NOT put up with the changes necessary to surpass EMA in popularity.

[Gene Tausk]

Jaron:

I respectfully disagree with your assertion that there are only two ways to go here. Unfortunately, both ways you indicate point towards a sport. Yes, the second variant is more realistic than the first, but it is still a sport. If you are going to use cold steel weapons in a sport, to have any kind of realism at all, you are basically going to have to bring back gladiatorial combat. Otherwise, you are going to have an artificial system which intentionally limits techniques or uses weapons which are unrealistic. Also, the focus changes from "how do we interpret the manuals?" to "how do I win in a tournament?" The two are not the same thing. TKD is a perfect example of this. Olympic style TKD is now a sport limited to certain types of kicks for certain targets. Obvious self defense techniques such as kicks to the groin or knees are not explored in Olympic style TKD because these techniques could actually work against a competitor in a tournament (intentional kick to the groin can get someone disqualified). So, what do you have? A self-defense system which is now a sport.

How about a third option? We just continue doing what we are doing. When we get together to spar, we do so in the hope that what we have learned from the manuals will work in the context of sparring. If we are right, then our theories are proven, or at least advanced forward.

There are EMA that do not have tournaments, such as the Bujinkan and Krav Maga that do not have tournaments, yet produce people who know how to take care of themselves in combat. I can't see why we can't do the same.


------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[jeremy pace]

IMO, the process of WMA becoming a sport has already begun... albeit on a more underground level. There are 3 schools of thought currently out there as i see it.

1. We have the SCA which is a brutal sport designed on its own rules meant to be a stylized "portrayal" of WMA. Little actual focus on the scholarly, i.e. inaccurate weapons and armour, no real formal training from any source, but large popularity because it is geared as a competition.

2. LARP which focuses on pretty strict scholarship and not much martial outlook. (In most cases)

3. ARMA and similar groups worldwide which try to blend the best of both. We have study groups that are considered very combat based but are still working from texts so they are scholarly as well.

As Gene said, I think we should just continue what it is we are doing. We are trying to revive an artform not make money. In a way we are also trying to reinstill some of those values of our ancestors into our modernday consumer bretheren. Thats why people think we must have a gimmick and are surprised to find out otherwise. It hasn't escelated so far yet but if WMA popularity continues to grow as it has then I hope we form some kind of official committe to regulate different groups out there. A kind of certification that states you are legitimate that way people wont be strayed down the path of flashy hollywood mcdojos. I think this would have helped with the popularity of EMA in America going astray.... but alas! The thing that really brought about so much popular interest was hollywood in the first place. We have an advantage here, lets not lose it to Star Wars and LOTR.

(an aside....... Nothing personal to any above mentioned groups. We all do what we love and i know people that do a little of all 3 groups mentioned. All have their merits and flaws. ARMA may be too physical for some for instance <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" /> )

[Randall Pleasant]

Jeremy Pace wrote:
LARP which focuses on pretty strict scholarship and not much martial outlook. (In most cases).

Jeremy

I must strongly disagree with your statement. If LARPs did good scholarship on European fighting traditions then they would be fighting like ARMA rather than using extremely light weapons, wearing plus-3 armoured t-shirts, shooting magic balls of fire, and casting magic spells.

[jeremy pace]

<img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> Sorry i should have clarified more. I mean groups that do historic battle reproductions......... thats why i said most. Obviously we dont have wands of magic missle in history or warfare would be verrrrry scary indeed!

[Jay Vail]

The sportification of WMA has already begun. There are already announcements for tourneys posted on the web.

[david welch]

The sportification of WMA has already begun. There are already announcements for tourneys posted on the web.

I am afraid this is the future... WMA McDojo:
http://www.guardup.com

David Welch
ARMA East Tennessee

[John_Clements]

Not to come across as argumentative, but what exactly do define as being "WMA"?
The term is so hidesouly vague and reflects such an enormous diversity of things, it's meaningless to me.

JC

[Justin Lompado]

My apologies Mr. Clements. Perhaps I should have clarified, I was referring to the study of historical swordsmanship, pole-arms, and their accompanying unarmed techniques (longsword, cut and thrust, rapier, kampfringen, sword and buckler, sword and shield). The methods of the Liechtenauer, Talhoffer, Ringeck, Vadi, de Liberi, Meyer (and others) fechtbuchs. Forgive me if this is also too vague but in that case imagine what are the focuses of ARMA study, that is the context I was using "WMA" to describe. I was referring to people in the future taking the ARMA or like approach to study and, after the passage of time allowed for more translations, interpretations, and practice, basically setting up schools in a manner so as to befit greater popularity and less historical context; following in the footsteps of such Asian martial arts such as karate and taekwando. So that, at some distant point, one might find a "master" who "teaches" kampfringen or abrazare in some shopping-plaza school. My point was, and perhaps I was not clear, this is obviously a destiny to be avoided, and you may thus feel this is a moot topic, but I was just asking the forum in general if they had any thoughts on such an occurence, if it is a possibility in the future if (and when?)historical swordsmanship becomes mainstream, and then obviously if there are concerns to have them voiced and hopefully dealt with as effectivley as possible. Again I apologize for using such a broad term.

Also, to everyone else, please do not miscontrue my intentions here. I was not insinuating that the ARMA was leading historical swordsmanship down the path to commercialization (in fact the opposite), and I hope nobody takes this post that way.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"I respectfully disagree with your assertion that there are only two ways to go here."


Disagree away counselor. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

" Unfortunately, both ways you indicate point towards a sport. Yes, the second variant is more realistic than the first, but it is still a sport. If you are going to use cold steel weapons in a sport, to have any kind of realism at all, you are basically going to have to bring back gladiatorial combat."

That would pretty drastically shrink the number of practicionrs with casualties like that....


"How about a third option? We just continue doing what we are doing. When we get together to spar, we do so in the hope that what we have learned from the manuals will work in the context of sparring. If we are right, then our theories are proven, or at least advanced forward."


Makes sense to me.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Gene,

One interesting point is of course that tournaments were very much an aspect of our arts in their days of actual usage. I am NOT neccissarily advocating that we today do ranking competitions (although we should spar early and often) for the reasons you outine. But tournaments did have their place in the past.

[Brian Hunt]

The problem with most tourneys being run in today's world is that they focus more on the recreation of pagentry and atmosphere for competiton than upon actual techniques. Now before anyone jumps me and talks about some of the tournements that have been run in which dress up has nothing to do with it, I am aware of them and they are vastly outnumbered. Tourney's are fun, and it is always a real ego boost to take home a prize from some sort of a prize tourney, but they do engender a strong sport like atmosphere which can degenerate technique very quickly into a game of tag. Just look at most karate tournements of today. Still, it might be fun to hold an occasional prize tourney in ARMA once in a great while. Just think of the bragging rights. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

just some random thoughts.

Brian Hunt
GFS