Future of Western Martial Arts

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JeffGentry
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby JeffGentry » Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:06 pm

Hey Gent's

The problem i have is basicly just with rule's if someone attack's me i fight to win there are no rule's, when rule's are attached it limit's the technique's used, and sometime's alter's the way technique's are done so they are "safe", so people become more interested in winning in competion as opposed to learning how to use the technique as it was originaly intended to harm your opponent, I think part of the reason we see injury on a very regular basis when we train is because we use the technique's as they were intended and they are intended to kill, maim, we can try to make thing's safe as we can that safety can only to a certain degree, most people are afraid of getting hurt and so they want a martial art to be safe(harmless) for them.

I do think eventualy HEMA will become more popular than it has been, look at the last ten year's, and alot will teach it "safely", i doubt it will become as popular as any AMA becasue i don't see alot of people teaching it with the flash of say Wu shu and alot of people think it doesn't work if it has no flash because it doesn't look dangerous to an untrained person, a first strike kill isn't real impressive to most people.

I realy doubt what we in ARMA do in training will ever be competitive/mainstream because we don't water anything down and don't want to, if you make a mistake against an ARMA opponent you are more than likely too feel pain and maybe get yourself hurt.

Brian

Still, it might be fun to hold an occasional prize tourney in ARMA once in a great while.


I have had that same thought on more than one occasion, Might be something to do at an international gathering.(hint, hint)

Jeff
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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:10 pm

"Just look at most karate tournements of today."

Which are glorified tag. But....look at a UFC tourney. That is a demonstration of real world usable fighting skill, in a competition. I am just saying that:

1. good ranking competition CAN be done
2. there is historical precedent

That said, I think it is a bad idea for some of the reasons already listed (sportification).

david welch
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby david welch » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:30 pm

But....look at a UFC tourney.


Yeah... look at it...

NO

Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Spitting at an opponent.
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
Holding the ropes or the fence.
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
Interference by the corner.
Throwing in the towel during competition.

No matter what you do, when you make rules so you can do martial training as a sport you lose something. About the best we could do is what we are doing now... training people how you would do it for real, and then let them spar it out and both sides agree that if one of you enter to make a dangerous move you stop. Maybe with a referee to question what he thought was a good hit if it wasn't called.

But as soon as you add rules to make it a sport people are going to start gaming the rules, and we are going to get away from training to win in combat, and start training to win in competition. To see what it looks like when warcraft turns into sport look what happened with judo. Origionaly it was almost all standup, battlefield fighting with rules to make it "safe" so people would compete and keep the art alive... and now it is BBJ from people gaming the rules. I would hate to see something similar happen to WMA. Again.
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Matthew_Anderson
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby Matthew_Anderson » Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:31 pm

"I am afraid this is the future... WMA McDojo:
http://www.guardup.com "

Wow..that is really craptacular.
Matt Anderson
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ARMA Virginia Beach

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Joachim Nilsson
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby Joachim Nilsson » Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:48 pm

I think I just threw up a little bit in my mouth.
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jeremy pace
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby jeremy pace » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:05 pm

Man Joachim i was going to type that same thing and then saw your post. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
Well, i guess if it gets porky little kids off the couch and puts a sword in their hand its not that bad. But i think once we start making concessions like that it all starts on the downward spiral.

Ive heard plenty of stories from different ARMA members of people going full contact with wasters and no pads. Live steel at half speed. No holding back with paddeds. I get just enough from these moments. I dont need a SFC in my life. I would love to do some kind of tourney between peers, but when you think about it where did sports come from to begin with? Anyone ever see that movie A Knights Tale?
Amor Vincit Omnia

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Martin_Wilkinson
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby Martin_Wilkinson » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:06 pm

That really is kinda scary...

Although, the sport sword stuff does one thing right, from the look of it, it trains you tactically, at least that's what the images imply.

Martin.
"A bullet, you see, may go anywhere, but steel's almost bound to go somewhere."

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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:39 pm

Good points. I still consider a good MMA fighter to be pound for pound the best unarmed fighters alive today, even with those restrictions on MMA competion. However, I do take and agree with your point that tourneys have rules, which goes down the sportification road, which we should eschew.

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Matthew_Anderson
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby Matthew_Anderson » Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:43 pm

OMG! check out the video at the bottom of this page:

http://www.guardup.com/saphron/sportsword.html

It'll make you spew for real! Who are these bozos and why do they think they're qualified to teach swordsmanship?
Matt Anderson

SFS

ARMA Virginia Beach

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Matthew_Anderson
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby Matthew_Anderson » Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:00 pm

O gee, they're looking for instructors too:

"Wanted: Qualified Part-Time Youth Instructors

USFA Fencing
AUSKF Iiado or Kendo
SCA, Renaissance or LARP Sword Fighters willing to learn our curriculum
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or Martial Arts instructors willing to learn our curriculum
Any Sports-Related Youth Instructor who is passionate about working with kids, but may not have experience in our particular activities
The above should be experienced in their respective art/sport as well as working with kids of various ages. References required. Position pays $10/hr plus performance bonuses and paid meetings as well as paid curriculum development time. Afternoon (3pm - 7pm) and Saturday hours as well as reliable transportation required".

Darn, I guess I'm not qualified since I'm not a LARPer or SCA "sword fighter"

And check this out:

http://www.guardup.com/saphron/ss_instructors.html

Is it just me or does this whole operation seem like a pseudo historical fencing pyramid scheme?

OK, I'm done, sorry for the rant but this kind of crap irks me.
Matt Anderson

SFS

ARMA Virginia Beach

david welch
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby david welch » Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:11 pm

And just for you people saying "this can't happen in the legitimate WMA community"...

Guard Up has worked with such notable organizations and individuals as Higgins Armory (the only museum dedicated to medieval warfare in all of North America) and Christian Henry Tobler (author of Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship) in interpreting these texts and collecting core concepts.

Simplifying these techniques to suit the practical realities of the equipment, the Sport Sword® program is able to use as its basis actual methods derived from the martial arts of Medieval and Renaissance Europe.

As a first installment for the Sport Weapontm Programs and Weaponry, future curriulum will expand to other weapon forms including two-weapon systems, weapon and shield systems, pole weapon systems, and more. Meanwhile, each program will provide an historical foundation from which to draw upon.

Future programs will draw not only from Medieval and Renaissance Europe but from any time and place around the world, allowing students to learn about both Western and Eastern weapon combat forms in unison.
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Martin_Wilkinson
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby Martin_Wilkinson » Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:18 pm

"Simplifying these techniques to suit the practical realities of the equipment"

But, by editing the techniques to adapt to inaccurate equipment ruins the legitimacy, at least with wasters, you have the right shape, and a decent(ish) weight. And blunt steels are much more accurate and IMO fun. To me using padded foam weapons defeats the point.

Martin
"A bullet, you see, may go anywhere, but steel's almost bound to go somewhere."

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Dylan palmer
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby Dylan palmer » Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:20 pm

here we go! <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> (goes up to room to cry in dissatisfaction)

a day when in school ill find people who think they know how to use swords.

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Joachim Nilsson
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby Joachim Nilsson » Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:00 pm

Matthew wrote:

OMG! check out the video at the bottom of this page:

http://www.guardup.com/saphron/sportsword.html

It'll make you spew for real! Who are these bozos and why do they think they're qualified to teach swordsmanship?


You owe me some cereal and a Mars bar.
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Will Adamson
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby Will Adamson » Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:06 pm

Perhaps if WMA is going to be mass marketed, this might me a bit more palatable. These guys do armored sparring with blunts, but I don't like the boffers they use. They use wasters too, but I'm not sure to what extent. I've only seen them once, and that was before I'd read anything about European sword arts, so I can't say whether their techniques are historically accurate or not.

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"Yes, pointy end goes in the man."
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