Future of Western Martial Arts

[s_taillebois]

Well the upguard crew, is working with, as noted, children. As such, crippling a few yuppie kids isn't high on their agenda. As for the people they might hire, oh well, not like they can go to the local universities fechtbuch majors.
The future of Renn/Gothic based martial arts, likely will remain on current trends. The epee crowd will do the genteel stuff, the faire people will trip over the sword they wear once or twice a year, ARMA and co. will develop in some manner which mixes historicism with the pragmatic aspects. If ARMA and like disciplines get too close to the UF contingent in focus, it will be driven underground or out of existence. We are dealing with a tradition of lethal weapons and techniques here-and the first few incidents involving organized group sparring, and accidental deaths, will bring the legal system done on it all. Alas, or thank providence, this isn't 1468, or 1525. So, it isn't possible, or advisable to get literally into the 'intent' of the original masters. However it can be a legitimate art, discipline or sport, if kept within the social limits inherent to our time.
Ironically, this issue has antecedents...after a few towns were burnt down after over-excited tourneys, some medieval churchmen tried to ban the fun. The reason they didn't, is that tourney's, and Renn stage combats, did serve a clear social need for the rulers. Methinks ARMA and co, probably aren't even a passing thought for our aristocrats. And it would be advisible to keep it that way...

[TimSheetz]

HI Brian and all,

I think that the way we do it in ARMA is close enough to a tourney (without crossing the line ) to get "braggin rights"... but more imporant than bragging rights to me is to have the respect of my peers and fellow swordsmen.

I would rather be in a circle of peers than standing in a "winners circle" since one thing is real, and the other a passing ego-boosting symbol.

I guess I don't think we need to foster the "I'm the best here today" mentality. I think we have plenty of folks in ARMA who have strong wills and that is focused on leading and developing martial skills... we don't need those wills bent to the achieving of a one day "I am the best today" award.

I felt good at the last ARMA event I went to in 2003. I think I dished out more than I took. And even had I took more than I dished out, as long as I tried to do my best and manfully (or maybe I should say martially for ladies present ) endeavoured to fight the good fight, it is a win win situation and that practitioner, regardless of their current level of skill and fitness earns some respect.. not in the PC BS way of "self esteem" but in the true achievement of making an earnest struggle to meet a challenge.

Hope this makes sense.

Tim Sheetz

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Tim, I agree with that, but...I cannot help thinking as I watch these Olympic games, man- if they consider half-pipe snowboarding an Olympic sport- then there is no reason that our endevour (even though it's not sport) should not be considered- you know?

[david welch]

I think that the way we do it in ARMA is close enough to a tourney (without crossing the line ) to get "braggin rights"... but more imporant than bragging rights to me is to have the respect of my peers and fellow swordsmen

Clap Clap Clap.

And that is it.

The End.

Amen.

David Welch
ARMA East Tennessee

[s_taillebois]

It might become so in a regional sense, with meetings between groups for sparring and such.
Likely it'll be in Europe or the Southern US first, as there seems to be quite a few ARMA type groups in those regions. (much less in such hinterlands as the one from which I write)
The difficulty will be the tendancy to have fantasy (be it Renn. fair stuff, or that of it being a direct equivalent to period combat) take it over.

[David_Knight]

I've definitely gotten pretty worked up over this same debate on the elist before.

As many of you have pointed out, the sportification of RMA has already begun, and ARMA doesn't exactly have the power to exercise universal quality control over how this material is presented to the public. Splinter groups like GuardUp will continue to appear and pollute the public perception of our art until we in ARMA stop overcompensating for our fear of commericalization, step up, and make a structured effort to bring this more into the mainstream MA community than those groups have.

I personally find it insulting to suggest that we as a whole lack the integrity and love for our art to teach the ARMA curriculum in a classroom setting without sportifying it. An accreditation system with clear training and membership standards would easily solve that problem (as it does for many EMA federations, though those federations may have very different goals than we do), and anyone who would deviate from the ARMA Method is going to do so anyway. Our discipline and training approach would set us apart, as it does now, as the most hardcore school, and, as is currently the case, anyone looking to playfight would just leave.

The common argument is that instructors would lower standards to retain more students. I disagree. My MMA academy in Miami, for instance, retained maybe 1 student in 10 from the intro classes because those students were forced to see beyond the UFC imagery and realize that MMA training is actually hard work. My instructors never dumbed it down to the lowest common denominator. Instead, they have an excellent reputation as a school that gets results, and have become immensely successful.

What is everyone so afraid of? What would change in the way that we teach? I have yet to hear a convincing argument that relies on anything other than conjecture.

To use an analogy that Jeanry once made, our mentality with respect to this issue is like that of the talented punk rock band who refuses to "sell out" and thus turns down a major record deal, so Greenday gets the deal instead and everyone thinks that is what real punk sounds like. Meanwhile, the talented band just sits around and bitches (kind of like what we are doing right now <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> ), and the only people who discover their music are the hardcore underground punk aficionados who would have discovered them anyway.

RMA mass marketing is inevitable, and we will eventually have to rise to the challenge. It would be a disgrace to ARMA and an injustice to the art to let groups like GuardUp take the forefront.

[Matthew_Anderson]

http://www.emaaknights.com



Well see, here we go again. I'm really trying not to go off on another rant and further derail this otherwise meanigful thread, but seriously, spend five minutes looking at this website and you'll see that this looks like just another renfaire oriented, fantasy role-play group. I have no problem with people forming whatever kind of group they want, to play at being knights or whatever, just don't expect to be taken seriously as a martial arts organization and please don't call what you're doing "historical" or "European" or a "martial art". And don't charge people money for lessons or seminars on these topics or hold yourselves out to be some sort of experts on historical weapons and fighting. This is exactly the kind of group and activity that the ARMA stands in stark contrast to, and has always sought to differentiate itself from.

[Will Adamson]

Well if this is so unacceptable then I can't see that there is any common ground to be found between marketability and realism/historic accuracy/true martial practice. To tell you the truth, I'd rather not be doing something that is the "most popular" in anything.

Later Edit:
Let me point out that I professionally dig up and analyze the trash of folks who are long dead. So do not take my relating historical research to escapism the wrong way. It sure beats being tied to a crackberry!

One more thing. Isn't trying to get into the mind of a long dead sword master a bit of escapism? And what's so wrong with dressing the part? In the end, it's all about fun really. Even if you consider what you're doing to be resurrecting something from history, it's still fun to do isn't it? I mean if you really didn't have fun doing it, you wouldn't spend your free time and a considerable amount of your financial resources in said activity.

I'm also detecting a bit of resentment of ren faires here. Well whatever you might think of the newage culture that has managed to hijack ren faires, they're still the most likely place to recruit new sword arts practitioners of whatever organization. So if you automatically count out that demographic, you've just shot yourself in the foot. What groups more along the lines of ARMA can do is just kill 'em with practicality. Popularity be damned!

Later edit:
Let me point out that I professionally dig up and analyze the trash of long dead people. So don't take my relating historical research to escapism the wrong way. It sure beats being tied to a crackberry!

[TimSheetz]

Dave,
I don't see teaching ina classroom setting synonomous with sportifying it.

For me it is the dilemma of a tourney... and how do you have a tournament without laying out tons a rules.. and then have folks train to fight without focusing on traingn to win within the rule sets.

I think that the classrooms presented are just examples of bad ones and bad trend in general.

Peace,

Tim

[Mike Cartier]

David Knight has a point.
Plus I would love to beat the hell out of Green Day.

[Joachim Nilsson]

Will Adamson wrote:

I'm also detecting a bit of resentment of ren faires here. Well whatever you might think of the newage culture that has managed to hijack ren faires, they're still the most likely place to recruit new sword arts practitioners of whatever organization. So if you automatically count out that demographic, you've just shot yourself in the foot. What groups more along the lines of ARMA can do is just kill 'em with practicality. Popularity be damned!

I disagree. I personally have nothing against people who like ren faires or re-enactment. It is rather the fact that a lot of people recruited from those ranks come into the ARMA with slightly wrong notions or preconsumptions of what we are doing. Ren faires are not the most likely place to recruit new practitioners of our martial art. At least not practitioners that are in it for the long haul. We'd rather look to the "Budo crowd" and recruit from them. A lot of the ren faire people seem, bluntly put, to think that what we offer is a more pratical opportunity for them to play Aragorn. The Budo crowd do not. They are simply interested in learning to fight -"Olde Schoole Style." <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> As for us here in Sweden, we have already turned toward the Budo crowd more and more, and also stay well clear of the ren faires (since we've suffered a bad experience or two from those particular events).

EDIT: Congratulations on attaining fatherhood.

Best,
Joachim

[Will Adamson]

I guess the Budo folks would know more about fighting that the LOTR worshipers. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> Perhaps the motivations for getting started in any martial art are too varied to try to list or talk in generalities.

I never would have thought about Budo. I always thought of them as prefering to kill me with their bare hands. <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />

BTW: The tough part is going to be in July when the baby comes and we move to VA all within a few weeks! Hopefully my ARMA application will be accepted and I can have something to occupy my mind and body other than an infant who will be taxing my mind and body. I'll bet the ARMA Knoxville guys will be push-overs compared to a screaming newborn boy at 2am! Well David?

[Joachim Nilsson]

Will wrote:

I never would have thought about Budo. I always thought of them as prefering to kill me with their bare hands. <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Well, Doebringer did say, after all, that all fencing comes from Ringen. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's the same basic movements after all. You just add or subtract an implememt in the hands of the praticioner.

But I can surely understand the attraction the use of medieval/renaissance swords have on the average ren faire/re-enactor/LARPer. But from what I have seen so far with my own eyes though, it's the guys with a prior martial arts background that tend to stick around the longest.

[s_taillebois]

M. Adamson,
Nicely written response. And the ARMA type fencing is a martial art, but one of a nature that applications aren't always clear-at least compared to the very basic original intent of the original masters.
Renn. fairs, well they have their problems, but on the whole it's just fun. If someone wants to posture with the surface aspects of a cavalier, so what?. Certainly is preferable to adopting the entire range of behaviors noted for that tradition.
As for the increase in groups not quite devoting the work needed to do this properly, oh well, individuals excel, the larger the group the greater need to meet the expectations of it's lesser members. Not all will care to devote their time and energy to the level of some others.
And since this art does involve weapons, and we are developing a very hoplophobic society...maybe drawing the boundaries too close is a bad idea.
Plus, watching people spin around is funny...and I want a sword like that emaa sword... could be useful for drying meat, or staking the mutts...

[david welch]

Will Adamson said:

I'll bet the ARMA Knoxville guys will be push-overs compared to a screaming newborn boy at 2am! Well David?

LOL... I would rather be beaten with a stick than deal with a newborn at 2am. If you would rather be beaten with a stick too... come on down. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />