Future of Western Martial Arts

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JeanryChandler
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby JeanryChandler » Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:40 pm

at least with wasters, you have the right shape, and a decent(ish) weight. And blunt steels are much more accurate and IMO fun. To me using padded foam weapons defeats the point.


Depends a hell of a lot on how the padded weapons are made. With those floppy wet noodle boffers they are using you aren't anywhere near the ballpark of anything like real fencing. They don't even have discernable edges.

With a decently made,correctly balanced padded weapon though you can do about as well as you can with wasters, IMHO.

Jr
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Brian Hunt
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby Brian Hunt » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:31 am

Hi Tim,

Hmmm, guess my dry humor on bragging rights didn't come accross correctly on the internet. :P

I agree completly with you on the respect of my peers and friends.

I also agree that it should be about the best we can do, some days I do better than others, but I alway try to give as good as I recieve. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just happen to enjoy double elimination tourney's and I think it might be fun to do one with my ARMA peers under the same conditions that we already spar under.

with respect.

Brian Hunt
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TimSheetz
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby TimSheetz » Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:36 am

Mike, Dave...

I don't know, at every ARMA gathering that I am aware of, there is free sparring...

Now I look at sparring as a training tool.. sometimes really hard, sometimes not so... but there has always been some hard sparring at every event I have seen... Now, I have also seen some of the footage you guys make.. you seem to train very hard indeed... so how is adding judges (who can make plenty of errors) to the mix going to improve things? Do we need to have a guy standing there to tell me when I have been hit? If I got hit right, I most likely will know it. Do I need a judge to be able to assess my uncompleted (cause it was too dangerous to complete) actions and assess the battlefield damage? What about the guy who thinks it is BS? Does he get mad cause he just LOST his chance to have the trophy? Does he start to push the envelop on safety now because he feels ripped off of what he thinks is right?

Hey, even WITHOUT a tourney to jack up emotions, I can tell you I will be very careful indeed to watch out for highly competitive folks for my own safety. If I have to keep them in check just doing "training sparring" how will they be when they really feel there is a tangible award?

Hey, I am not saying I wouldn't come to throw down, I just think that it is troublesome and if too much emphasis is placed on it people will alter their training to Win a trophy in stead of learning a martial art.

Shoot, my example above was really just thinking about padded weapons.. what about wasters? We gonna compete with them? Might as well as call it UFC hickory club fighting cause who is going to remain within measure as they COMPETE?

I may not be all that smart, but I do know human nature, and I know that it will take a very large group with enormous discipline and character to go this route without it turning into total crap.... but even if it doesn't turn into total crap, we'll definitely be in store to see some crap. It opens the door for EGO displays.

I have always been impressed with the character and attitudes of ARMA members in our interactions, but going this route changes the equation of things... Like the non ARMA tournaments I have seen, it is easy to be all polite and gentlemanly when you lose (even if the judges are terrible)... when you were not fighting with martial intent from the beginning... If you are serious with intent, then having fun in it and taking it easy won't be the order of the day, will it?

Anyway, that is my two cents. :-)

Tim
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby TimSheetz » Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:41 am

HI Brian,

AH, well I think typewritten commo is hindering here.

I am not totally dead set to something like you mention... but the idea of adding a tangible award to a group of folks who are competitive just puts us at risk for showing the uglier sides of human nature. I'd prefer not to...

I really just want us to think about it from all angles.

Peace,

Tim
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Brian Hunt
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby Brian Hunt » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:50 am

Hi Tim,

you might have a point about the problems of competition, which is why I would want it to be an occasional thing so we don't loose focus as a group. I first ran into the "tournement" mindset at my first karate tournement at the age of 15. People will explote any rule set to gain the maximum advantage that they can. The guy who won the white belt sparring was from Okinawa and he pretended that he didn't really understand english to get away with severe rule violations such as kicking people full force in the head and face when that wasn't a valid target for this particular competition. Imagine how ticked off I was when after he had won, I overheard him having a very good conversation with superb english to his "sensei" about how well their strategy had worked.

On the other hand I have been involved in tourneys (both weapon and empty hand) where everyone just competed to the best of their abilities and it was a great experience.

I certainly don't want to see anyone in ARMA start training just so they can win a tourney. And I certainly don't wish to do anything that would comprimise the type of training that we do in ARMA. I do believe that we can compete once in awhile without comprimising the way we train. I concede that you may be right about the problem with a prize tourney, but what about just a friendly competition once in a great while?

For that matter, I would love to get enough ARMA folks together with padded weapons for a good skirmish of say 100 -150 per side.

cheers.

Brian Hunt
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby JeffGentry » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:02 pm

Hey Gent's

In some respect's ARMA is an "Underground" organization, we know that as a general rule the way we spar is not totaly accepted by alot of other group's, we all like to "Play" pretty rough, i think if we were to do a survey of injuries we sustain in sparring(padded or waster) it would be higher than most other group's, We(ARMA) in general do not want to get injuried we also understand that what we do and the way we do it is designed to cause injury so that risk is accepted, and we try to keep the injuries to a minimum.

Not everyone is willing too accept injury as part of a martial art, so there will alway's be those who will be more than wiling to water down the HEMA in order to make a dollar and avoid the risk of being sued, which to me is not the way to go, my thought is if you are afraid of being hurt don't let the door hit you in the #$&amp; on the way out.

I do know there are at least 2 article's on the main site about "tournament's" between school's or town's in the spirit of fun and competition and there were a few prize's awarded, I don't think a "Tournament" once a year or so at something like an international gathering is going to effect the way we train because we are not training soley(sp?) for the "tournament".


If we look at this it is about a tour and open challenge by a 15th century French knight. The Deeds of Jacques de Lalaing

Just something to think about.

I definately do not want to see European martial art's fall any further than they have i.e boxing, high school/collegiate wrestling, sport fencing, stage combat. Even though the UFC, KOTC are the closest thing to real combat they do rule you to death, and the training has become specific to the cage i.e. get the opponent down and push them against the cage so they cannot use technique and pound them into submission.

It is a slippery slope to try and keep combat effectiveness and attract new and dedicated martial artist, ARMA by it's very nature is an exclusive organization we do not believe in altering the way we train and practice so people do not get hurt, we do try to be safe, so people who are fearful will not come to us to learn to fence, those who want to learn a true Med./Ren fighting art will.

We are already seeing the McDojo's popping up as evidenced by Gaurdup, and sport fencing Salle's teaching Med./Ren. swordsmanship.

I think if ARMA keep's doing what we are doing we will be better off for it, we have good people in our organization we all may not agree on every thing, we do agree on the core principle's of what we are doing and that i think will keep ARMA at the top of the heap.

Just my 2 cent's worth.



Jeff
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TimSheetz
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby TimSheetz » Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:19 pm

Hi Brian,

"I concede that you may be right about the problem with a prize tourney, but what about just a friendly competition once in a great while?"
I don't think there is a problem about having an in house tourney as long as we have discussions like this and make sure we keep ourselves on track through this sort of dialogue and keeping a watch out for dangerous behavior I think it is fine.

Just aknowledging the possible issues sometimes fixes them I think.

Peace,

Tim
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby Martin_Wilkinson » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:42 pm

Jeanry: Sorry, i meant foam padded weapons like theirs, i realise that there are some decent padded weapons out there. Although to me, having the weapon padded makes you less concerned about defending yourself. So to me, it would make sense to use either wooden wasters, or blunt steels for any 'tournies'.

Martin.
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby Shane Smith » Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:59 pm

I'm with Tim more or less. I don't need a judge to tell me how surely and cleanly I'm fencing nor do I see any value in conducting any form of tournament for the purpose of satisying some emotional need or desire(One on one fencing is competitive to the extreme as it is, so an emotional need for recognition on a grander scale is the only rational behind a tournament in my opinion although others may disagree) . Crossing swords with men I respect is enough for me to both learn and insure myself that my resolve and nerve has not faded. I'll fence with near anyone on-demand and will strive in every case to out-perform them. That's enough of a gut-check for me and if my skill is getting dull, it will quickly be apparent and corrective action will be taken.

Look at what tournaments have done to some Asian styles and collegiate fencing for example. It seems that both move farther and further from combat reality every time a rule-change takes place. Witness sport TKD as a prime example of just how wrong a fighting art can go in a tournament-driven environment.
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Brian Hunt
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby Brian Hunt » Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:15 pm

Hi Shane,

that is what happens when you have a judged competition. I was thinking of a basic tourney in which one is required to call the shots themselves, like we do when sparring. Nobody needs to tell me whether or not I have been hit. If I have been struck a good blow, I say great shot,or something along those lines and acknowledge where I was hit at. The main thing I was thinking is a series of rounds held in the same manner that we already spar within a set boundary or eric from which you have a final winner just for the fun of it and no other reason. As for general sparring, I love it, and I look forward to crossing blades with you once again. Last year in Provo was fun.

just some of my personal views.

Brian Hunt
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby JeanryChandler » Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:55 pm

Thats because you haven't used a top quality padded weapon yet my lad. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jr
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby JeanryChandler » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:16 pm

I'm not advocating for or against by saying this, but to expand on Brians idea, maybe in this discussion we should consciously try to separate the issues of the very idea of competions of any kind, versus the technique of how they could be implemented. It's two seperate issues IMHO.

Jr
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby JeanryChandler » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:35 pm

we look at this it is about a tour and open challenge by a 15th century French knight. The Deeds of Jacques de Lalaing


Hadn't noticed this great article before. All I can say is, it may not be good for the art in general, or even ethical or moral or good for society, but I sure would have enjoyed watching some of these matches!

Jr
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby JeffGentry » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:51 pm

Hey Jeanry

There are a couple of article's in the article's section about school's fighting one another, town's or villages fighting one another for fun and friendly competition so there is historical precedent It might fun to do a diffrent type of "prize playing".

Jeff
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Re: Future of Western Martial Arts

Postby JeanryChandler » Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:01 pm

I haven't read all the articles on this subject here on the ARMA page but I'm well aware of this sort of thing, it goes back well into the Iron Age, and I do believe mock combat in various forms has been a very ancient and important part of the Western martial tradition.

John C. has a great article on here somewhere about the traditional stick fighting in Venice which continued for hundreds if not thousands of years. Similar stick fighting used to go on in Celtic Ireland into pre-Christian times. One researcher claims that sort of ball games related to the modern sport of hurling, in some cases lasted as long as week for only one "goal", fought between whole villiages or even counties, and often used to decide matters of some import such as boundaries of herd-pastures and the like. Yet another blurring the fine line between sport and warfare is the tradition of Counting Coup which took place among the Lakota Sioux. Maybe Steve Tallebois can tell us a bit more about that.

Jr
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