Future of Western Martial Arts

[TimSheetz]

RIght up the road from my house is where they held a competiton between two local towns, right on a bridge into Pisa...
It was basically set up pushing against shields to see who could get across the bridge... they had to keep modifying it and finally have dumbed it down so bad cause folks were throwing peole off the bridge and getting people were dying...

Just another case where the idea of winning overcomes peoples minds when it comes to decisionmaking.

Tim

[JeffGentry]

Hey Tim

Do they still do it? Might be cool to see video of that.

Jeff

[jeremy pace]

I think the best kind of "Tournament" we could get involved in would be a group kind. Whether its one study group vs another, a particular fechtbuch technique match, or maybe ARMA vs another similar group. In my group we often fight 2 to 1 or paired and i have to say it is interesting to see how the fight differs. I think much could be learned from such a battle and also it helps breed comraderie. Too much pride in a group? Well easy to fix, just switch them up. Draw straws to see who goes where. My partners and i play this game where we all take different paths in the center of this large nature park (complete with a river, woods, hills, trails.....) and anything goes. The idea is to "kill" someone first and then they are on your "team". Well eventually these small teams meet and fight until there is one "leader" and the process repeats (often changing leaders quite a bit) until everyone is under one command. We call it the hunt and i have never seen anyone come away without having learned something and enjoyed themselves. Just a thought.

[s_taillebois]

M. Chandler & Co.
On the coup thing, with the Dakoda (Lakota can't comment, not many of that contingent here) and other groups they did have games related to that practice. The boys did so when young. Many of their games were often hunt or warfare related.
On the battlefield, that practice worked as a type of ascending recognition of bravery. First to ride past, then next and etc. Good way to condition the younger men into overcoming the natural fear of closing with the enemy.
In movies, the implication is that this wasn't a lethal practice. Not quite, after being whacked several times (often by someone on horseback) the recipient was often in pretty bad shape. And after a few coups, it wasn't uncommon for the attackers to finally kill the defender. The members of the societies which 'staked down', until another member could release them, were particular targets of this tradition.
In some regards, not a lot different from the old Anglo-Saxon traditions-it was ok to attack someone with more than one person, provided it was done sequentially, rather than all at once. However, the coup tradition and it's codifying of violence, is a non-factor in the violence at my location. This reservation, alas, is one of the most violent places in the entire US. And multiple attackers, acting all at once, kicking/beating/stabbing a victim to death, is distressingly common. Granted the victim will still likely die, but in the older tradition, at least they had a chance to survive, or at least leave fighting.
On the future of WMA, better in some ways to stay on the fringe. In that manner, those who wish to study more seriously can do so. And presumably keep the loons out, since this art does deal with potentially lethal tactics, a few incidents with crazed buffalo's could ruin it all. The up-guard contingent, harmless enough, and as noted if it gets a few kids interested, even in a oblique interpretation, not a bad thing.

[TimSheetz]

HI Jeff,

Well, since even in its telling from the Italian neighbors, it sounded so entirely canned now, that I didn't have the desire to see it.

I am more likely to see a realistic fighting display if I bring a friend to Lucca and we start squaring off in one of the alleys that still has that medieval feel. Now THAT would be cool.

The very few fights I have seen make even badly choreographed fights performed by drunks look good. Now to be fair, I have only seen two.

Tim

[John_Clements]

You are totally way off here on thsi injury notion, Jeff. I don’t know where you have gotten such an ideal, especially being with us now for only a short time as you have been, but I know for a fact that individual injury rates among our Study Groups has been insignificant. Minor and insignificant. Padded weapons by their nature do not produce injuries and I have not seen any evidence of any one being serious hurt by using them correctly. Compared to the stick fighting and blunt steel fights of other groups (where broken bones are quite possible and not infrequent) our free-play is safe as well as historically accurate. Evidence for free-play has been one of my major areas of research. Historical fighting men practiced in a manner that avoided injury ---they lacked medical care like we have and hurting someone in play could very easily result in their hurting you back for real with sharp weapons. So they had to be careful. More so than we do sometimes, I feel. Yet, they were still nonetheless able to adequately prepare themselves for self-defense in real combat.

JC

[s_taillebois]

M. Clement's,
And the planning and thought you no doubt exerted in setting up the safety/authenticity balance at your facility/program-is the type of forethought which could foster the survival/growth of WMA in this country. There is a necessary balance, and if WMA goes too far to either extreme, problems arise.
And those of us, not administering programs, might not be fully aware of all the conditions that do need to be considered.
And the perception that the historical fighting men could not afford reckless injuries, quite astute. Many of the armour plated aristocracy's duties and liabilities were as much political as martial. Just as likely to have lost your title, whilst laying abed with an needlessly inflicted and infected broken arm-sick and distracted, as on some blood splattered field.

[Jaron Bernstein]

John,

How do you define injury? I have yet to see a Friday class where at least one person didn't leave without at minimum bruises, the every popular bashed hands and a recent (thankfully minor) corneal abrasion. I have had 3 stitches (from a small woman with a training rondel! <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) and Jeff G. has torn his ACL. I guess only the ACL and the stitches were the only ones that could be classed as severe (i.e. requiring professional medical attention), but this art doesn't feel too gentle to me. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have it any other way and I just love the earnest aspect of it. But it doesn't strike me as injury free either.

[david welch]

Jaron,

One of the reasons Donna wrote her post about being injured is because of the rarity of it.

We fight, mostly, almost with abandon with steel feather swords, with nothing but light leather gloves and either safety glasses and the head off limits or some sort of a helmet. Donna was the first in our group to get injured enough to seek medical attention ( and now they think in might just be a bad bruise ) and she will be fighting this weekend. And we fight with swords, close and grapple, dagger wrestle, and throws are not off limits when we long sword spar.

Our injury rates are not any more, and maybe less, than what we would get if we were working MMA.

Now, I will admit we accept a high threshold of being beat around, and if you are not bruised and sore on Monday morning you were cheated in your training...

We define injury as needing to seek, and receiving, medical care. In other words, If I go to the doctor to get checked out and he tells me to put ice on it and quit being a wussy, it is not an injury. If he tapes it up and says don't use it for two weeks, it is probably an injury.

But this is just ARMA East Tennessee, and I in no way want to sound like I am talking for ARMA as a whole. I am thankful they allow us to do what we do, though.

David Welch
ARMA East Tennessee

[Randall Pleasant]

Well stated David. I think all of the study groups have similar experiences.

The other night I was looking at the pictures of Matt Anderson's Prize Play and was noticing the intense facial expressions of Matt and other as they fought hard with padded swords, wasters, and steel blunds. Yet, there were no major injuries. Such is a great reflection upon John Clements as a teacher, the ARMA method of training, and the skill level of ARMA scholars.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"We define injury as needing to seek, and receiving, medical care. In other words, If I go to the doctor to get checked out and he tells me to put ice on it and quit being a wussy, it is not an injury."

I guess by that definition we have a low injury rate. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[JeanryChandler]

One of the reasons I got back into WMA was because all my friends who are into MMA and boxin have started to get subtle but noticable speach impediments. Believe it or not I actually did golden gloves in the army and did fairly well. I liked the fighting part, but not so much all the contstant repetetive blows to the head over an over. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> I also remember trying out for the 7th Corps football team, that was one very painful day. I'll stick with the occasional sprained hand or bruised ribs over broken collar bones and ruptured cruciate ligaments any day.

Jr

[John_Clements]

Thanks, Steven.
I appreciate that insight here.
You are right on target about this.

Administrating an international organization that provides guidance and study materials as well as an example training curricula--with high standards of performance--while still permitting a freedom and independence of exploration that fosters energetic research and personal development, is definitely a balancing act.

JC

[John_Clements]

Safety mishaps in any martial art (or any athletic activity for that matter) result essentially from three things: inappropriate physical preparation (not being in condition to practice); poor safety considerations (carelessness and inattention to actions); and inadequate equipment (dangerous, defective, or deficient tools and gear).

There is a minimal expectation of roughness involved in any realistic combative system pursued with vigor. So there should be no assumption of "gentleness" involved---as the Fechtmeisters wrote: "What hurts teaches".

What I have seen in this craft from my 2.7+ decades now has largely been no different than what bumps, bruises, and minor injuries I have seen in East Asian martial arts classes, and far less than the serious accidents and injuries so common in popular martial sports.

So, I would appreciate if you would not assume or imply your local standards, and admittedly limited experiences, apply across the board to our other Study Groups, individual practitioners, or our organization as a whole.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

I would agree that or group has had a limited amount of injuries, bruises and bumps excluded. I would have to add though that we have one member who seems to have bore the brunt of almost all of our major injuries.

These would probably be due to some conditioning issues, but also poor drill planning and also some some equipment issues. I know of two injuries that he had that should really not have happened at all if were not for one small factor.

As a tip for newer groups though, he and I sit down after the fact and take an objective look at why the injury occurred and when looking at it through this light, we see our errors pretty clearly, as being either not careful enough or not respecting the nature of what we are doing at the time.

Here are two real quick examples:
while fighting with padded weapons we had a pinky finger, take the full force of the opposing weapons strike. The pinky looked as if it was smashed in a vise and also was broken.

The conclusion was, that the fingerless gloves he was wearing at the time were not adequate protection for just this type of reason. Also technique was probably a little lacking as the hand was struck.

We were practicing outside, on an uneven grassy surface, from a bind I did a hip throw to the opposing individual, and he resisted the attempt, which caused him to plant his feet on uneven ground. As the toss was completed it broke his lower leg, which remained stuck in place.

Conclusion: This individual who was tossed really has had limited exposure to throws and landing properly training and ultimatley it was a poor choice in starting positions for a relaively inexpirenced participant in throwing exercises. He also was cought up on the uneven ground, and this contributed as well.

Also have noticed that as our group gains more confidence and ability there is a tendency to laxen the saftey concerns, which is indeed a mistake. Sometimes it takes just a small seemingly insignificant little mistake to wake you up a little, then the saftey care is looked after again.

These things, like John said come from expirence.