Combat Ethics

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Francisco Uribe
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Re: Combat Ethics

Postby Francisco Uribe » Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:00 pm

Martin,
I'm afraid I do not understand where your opinon disagree with mine. Can you please explain a little further?
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Martin_Wilkinson
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Re: Combat Ethics

Postby Martin_Wilkinson » Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:50 pm

Sorry, with the second point, i was agreeing with you.

But wasn't war always a political tool? even before politics truly exsisted, because aren't land boundaries politics?
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TimSheetz
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Re: Combat Ethics

Postby TimSheetz » Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:40 pm

Hi Fransisco,

You said something very important I think. You said, "Evidently, we can not consider their fighting ethics from our modern standpoint."

I agree in one respect, and that is if we change simply modern to a modern civilized society. There is so much absolute barbarism still ongoing today that I can't sign up for a 'modern' viewpoint.

I will again quote myself from my earlier post in reference to individual combat ethics in a life and death struggle: Ethics here is merely about WHY you initiate the fight, not HOW you conduct the fight.

IN the individual life and death struggle, I would see very little limitations on techniqes. ALL IS FAIR. Anyone ever see Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid? Remember them discussing the rules of a knife fight? That IS the ethics of individual combat once it is joined. The ethics comes in why it was started... and ther are tons of gray areas that can creep in depending on the situation.

Once the fight is over, and an individual stands over the defeated guy who has a broken femur and shattered collarbone as well as some significant bleeding, it is UNethical to cut open his guts and drag them about... or tie him to a car and drag him... That crosses the line from brutal fighting to atrocity. It is never justified to commit atrocities. It is justified to WANT TO, but not to do it.

The whole "defend your family/land/etc" discussion is all about the WHY you fight.

Now looking to larger collective goal oriented violence, ethics becomes a bit more interesting to discuss.

I think that Violence has been the "Arm of decision" for more poltical issues than any other in the history of the world. Being able to use and control that arm is the challenging part.

When is the use of violence justified as part of politics? In ancient days, they went to attack a town.. so it was violence against everyone there... to include atrocity as standard. How should that violence be used and what are considered viable targets are all components of the question of ethics.

Without the reign of law, stemming from civilization, humans sink to the lowest levels, generally. Sure there are decent folks, but only when the controls are slipped away do people show their evil sides. Lets face it, criminals exist everywhere and do heinous things, even with law.... but throw in a hurricane induced disaster, and you have people committing wholesale theft and patrolling for young rape victims.... throw in a civil war with three different ethnic, and religious affiliations, and you have neighbors kiling their next door neighbor and raping their daughters "because there is a war on and I can,"..... add a tsunami, and you will have people trying to sell children found stranded....

All these situation give us a glimpse into human nature and what seemingly decent folks will do when they feel like there is no law over them. Now lets set back the clock to the middle ages and imagine a force just storming the breach in a wall.... what do you think is going to happen when there is no law but what each sees fit for the next 6 hours in there? This to me is the true ethical issue, not whether or not it is ethical to kill or fight or defend yourself. It is, but WHY we engage is more important, and HOW WE BEHAVE after victory is the true ethics of war and violence.

Anyway, that is waaay mooore than my two cents. Sorry if it seems like a lecture...

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Francisco Uribe
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Re: Combat Ethics

Postby Francisco Uribe » Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:06 pm

Martin,
My question about war, was merely a rethorical one.
I was trying to make a connection of Machiavello's general philosophical ideas and with Master Vadi's propositions that we should not be gentle with those that come to hurt us and not be naive to rely on the idea of a "kind opponent".
Somehow this kind of concept seems to permeate the period at several levels.
"The end justify the means" a extreme simplification od Machiavello's ideas but one that perfectly fits with the notion of keeping your life by harming your opponent by all means necessary.
In the end, staying alive is just the supreme goal of life itself.


This takes me to Tim's points.
It seems that in a life/death situation, the general advice is not to rely on the opponent's goodwill.
Maybe because this are exactly the kind of situations that expose the worst that humankind has to offer.
And from Tim's point of viewit only makes sense that WHY the fight is started will define the ethical boundaries of the combat behavior.
I could cut a man in half and spill his guts on the flor, an escentially abhorrent act, but it will be fine and sanctioned if I did it to defend my own life. However we would have a completly different situation had I been the attacker.

Tim's got a point... WHY will powerfully define the kind of ethics a warrior will follow.

Francisco
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Re: Combat Ethics

Postby Francisco Uribe » Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:16 pm

And I just tought of something else.

Even tough Vadi says that one must no doubt and harm, there are other places in his script were he advices in favor of ethical behavior. In general he advocates refraining from using your power to overwhelm.
So my guess is that for Vadi it will be an fault to ethics and moral behavior, to keep taking it on an opponente that is no longer able to fight, nor defend himself.
He states that such behavior would bring shame on the master of such a student.

Who said there is no ethics or moral lessons in the fechtbuchs and operas?
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Derek Gulas
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Re: Combat Ethics

Postby Derek Gulas » Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:31 pm

Hello Tim,

I was reading some of your posts and I was wondering about your opinion on how the modern mindset comes into play when we look at the combat ethics of old, in particular, how our minds see RMA through the filter of total war. I mean, on an individual level, I guess many modern people would probably be considered softies if magically transported to the days of Talhoffer etc. But then again, think of what our society has been through in the past 100 years alone. I mean, consider that we've been through two World Wars and a terrifying Cold War in the past century. Certainly this has affected our culture and the way we look at war. If anything, I think that this mentality has given our society an expectation of nothing less than total victory when we go to war. The enemy must not simply be defeated, but destroyed utterly. When people look back through time at knights, they expect things to be done differently, on an idealized "honorable" way on an individual level, aka "chivalry". So anyway, I've blabbered on an on for a while now... what do you all think?
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TimSheetz
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Re: Combat Ethics

Postby TimSheetz » Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:08 pm

Hi Derek,

I think that generally we ina civilized modern country are not necessarily softies but that we are highly filtered from the dirty business of violence - and that is generally a good thing. Violence now is more ikely a form of entertainment than a nsurvival necessity for most folks in civilized societies.

Total war: I have to disagree with you on total war... ANY military's goal is to urn the enemy military into the battlefield equivalent of the baby harp seal. That is the bottom line. We tailor the weapons and tactics we use to stay within the generally accepted (at least on paper) ethical standards. We do not engage in total war today. If we used the strategy of WWII there would a lot more to the TOTAL part of it. In my poersonal opinion, colateral damage is kind of the whole POINT of war, so why minimize it? Factors in why there is less of the WWII outlook on total war is two fold, one being that technology allows us to be specific, and the other is publicity through world wide media.

If they had world wide media coverage in the renaissance and the commanders there knew their actions would be seen, many things would be different. This is straying off topic....

In short, the standard today is defeat for the enemy, not total destruction... if we took away our self imposed limitations and pursued simpl destruction, it would be an amazing thing.

Gotta run..

Tim
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Justin Lompado
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Re: Combat Ethics

Postby Justin Lompado » Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:23 am

Hi Tim,

I agree with most of your points. However, another and I think large part of the reason total war is no longer used is because (thankfully) we no longer are fighting anything near the scope of WWII. If such a conflict was fought again today with total war obviously the costs would be greater than anything previous. I presume total war would include powerful if not nuclear weapons, but I really don't think we need those right now for immediate offense. Straying a little, if at the end of your post you were referring to the current Iraq War then, even without total war, if the allied forces committed themselves to destroying the enemy then yes of course it could be done, but then again if we could or were willing to do that we wouldn't still be fighting there.
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Filip Pobran
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Re: Combat Ethics

Postby Filip Pobran » Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:37 pm

hitting groin... what it has to do with ethics?

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Martin_Wilkinson
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Re: Combat Ethics

Postby Martin_Wilkinson » Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:52 pm

it's considered dishonorable (today at least) and ones believes(including honor) will affect ones ethics.

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Re: Combat Ethics

Postby david welch » Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:10 pm

Ethics are for what you do before the fight and after the fight. During the fight there is only one thing you shouldn't do... lose.
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Re: Combat Ethics

Postby Martin_Wilkinson » Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:51 pm

you're right during the fight you shouldn't lose, but, at the same time do you ethics not help dictate the fashion in which you will fight?

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Re: Combat Ethics

Postby david welch » Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:08 pm

Martin_Wilkinson said:

you're right during the fight you shouldn't lose, but, at the same time do you ethics not help dictate the fashion in which you will fight?


No. Even the concept of what you just asked is so foreign to me, I can't even comprehend why you would even ask.

If you threatened my life, or the life of my family, to the point I though I was in a life or death fight, I have no problem at all with shooting you, stabbing you, pushing you in front of a bus, or pointing behind you and saying "look! It's the cops!" and when you turn to look, killing you from behind.

If you force me into a life or death fight, there is nothing I would not do to make sure it is your death, not mine.

And I can't understand anyone that says they would do otherwise.

David Welch
ARMA East Tennessee
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Andrew Adams
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Re: Combat Ethics

Postby Andrew Adams » Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:35 pm

Duels:

Do you apply 21st century American values to people who lived a thousand years before us on a completely different continent? We often try to apply American standards and values to other people in US Foreign Policy today and that is why we often misjudge our adversaries. All the way up till about 1890 in the US it was customary for a western man to walk around heavily armed. Wild animals, outlaws, renegades, Indians, or just a contrary domesticated animal could all pose threats.

If you tried to bully, cheat, or rob from a Western man he was expected to defend himself. It might be a hundred miles to the nearest lawman. So you had to go ride for say three or four days to get the law. If he was there, you than had a three or four day ride back. The lawman than arrested the criminal, if he was still around, and either had to transport him back the three or four days to jail or hold him in town until the circuit judge came around which might be up to a month or more. All this time the taxpayer is flipping the bill to feed the lawman and criminal and for maybe a week the guy who rode to fetch the lawman is not working.

Often the law took to long to do anything or else the lawbreakers simply went someplace the law couldn’t go. So it was much easier for you to take the law into your own hands and hang or shoot the culprit. If you didn’t, the people around you would start to think you a coward and all the criminals and riff-raff would begin to try and take advantage of you. If it was thought you were a coward shop-keepers might not sell to you, your neighbors might stop doing business with you, and if you needed it no one would hire you to do a job. In the “Old West” you were expected to be brave and loyal. If you carried a gun you were expected to know how to use it and be willing to as well.

This tradition can be traced all along the US’s history and is some of the logic behind many states Right to Carry Laws. You have the right to protect yourself, your loved ones, your property and even the responsibility of protecting those who cannot or will not protect themselves, if you can.

In the Medieval Ages anything went. Might made right. A lord, freeman, or merchant traveling through another lord’s lands depended upon him to be honest. If he wasn’t he might attack you or charge you exorbitant tax rates to cross his lands. (Minor taxes were allowed especially if it was known that the local lord paid for the roads upkeep and kept the surrounding lands free of bandits.) But robber barons were all too common. To keep yourself safe you needed to go armed with the idea that attacking you was either futile or to costly to be worth it. Around the time of the Third Crusade merchant companies were forming. Poor knights and out of work soldiers suddenly found a lucrative relatively safe way to earn a living, caravan guards. (Often mocked in fantasy literature, merchant companies, and therefore caravan guards, tended to be well equipped and well trained.) They had to be. The merchants were carrying veritable fortunes. An arms race was on. Bandit forces needed stronger and stronger forces to defeat the merchants. If a bandit force grew too strong it needed to be tended to by a great lord or even the king himself! These merchant caravans supplied the goods of the world and provided for cities to form and the Renaissance to happen.

As the Renaissance took on strength nation-states formed and feudal armies transformed into professional standing armies. The aristocracy was loathe to lose their power to the new bourgeois class. In the Middle Ages duels and tournaments took the place of raiding or warring against your neighbor’s insults to your honor. In the Renaissance the obsolete nobility had to manage a way to keep their honor (and power) intact. One way was to join the army as an officer. Another was to become an essential government servant. Yet another was to go into business for yourself. However, if you had a title whether it was squire, lord, or prince you were expected to keep your honor. Honor could be besmirched in so many ways I will not list them all here. Something as small as talking to the wrong person at a party to saying something that we today would think was inoffensive could be cause for a duel. Duels were an acceptable way for the martially minded man to handle questions of honor. “Sally and I are good friends.” That could be interpreted by Sally’s other male friends or relatives that Sally and I are a bit too friendly and a duel to the death could ensue!

Today honor doesn’t really count for a whole lot. Respect for the law or fear of it keeps most of us in line. If someone cuts you off in traffic a honk of the horn and a rude hand gesture are typically enough to satisfy your “honor.” (Although I would maintain that such a reaction would be dishonorable.) If you track them down and kill them or even start playing cut-off games the police will very quickly more than likely intervene and punish you the victim.

Today the acceptable, and much overly used, method of “getting even” is the lawsuit. If someone does something so harsh to you that you want to kill them the best way is to sue them. So a trial of champions, where we use lawyers as our champions, in lieu of a big strong guy who’s good with a sword, duels out our case. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose but generally nobody has to get hurt or die. (Although I would maintain that tort reform really needs to happen in this country and that we have too many lawyers but that is a different discussion best suited on another website’s forum.)

So is it okay to kill someone else in a duel? In 1250 sure, I’d even say in 1885 “Old West” it is. Killing someone was accepted if not actually expected when someone did something “wrong.” Today we can take a life to save a life but the “moral” line is drawn there for individuals. We do things differently now. Maybe it’s better. Maybe it’s worse. But it’s the way we do things today. Maybe if the threat of a sword through the ribcage or a bullet to the head was a real possibility there would be fewer jerks in the world and we would treat everyone more civilly but I doubt it.

War:

Most people think that we are commanded not to kill. Actually a better way to look at it is that we are commanded not to commit murder. Each society has its own particular definition for what constitutes murder. Most people would agree that at the bare minimum murder is the unlawful taking of a human life by another human especially with premeditated malice.

Snipers save lives. Most people think of a sniper as a murderer. They often get to pick and chose which enemy target they will “service.” But the real fact remains that a sniper is a military or law enforcement weapon used to gather and collect intelligence and if possible take that one shot that will “save” lives. Some lunatic hiding in the trunk of a car killing random people to instill terror because he thinks “Allah” told him to is not a sniper. He’s a serial killer. Again if a sniper does his job right he SAVES lives.

Innocent people die in war. You can make the smartest bomb in the world but as long as evil people live among the innocent, or even use them as shields, innocent people will die. As a soldier you have to accept the fact that sometimes the guy you just killed or maimed might have been your best friend given the right circumstances. Some guys can’t deal with that. Some can. As a soldier you pray that your leaders will use your talents at killing sparingly. Sometimes you have to fight and sometimes you have to kill. And sometimes you have to kill people you don’t want to. Maybe in hindsight you think you didn’t have to kill so many people or that your leaders were wrong to send you to go kill but all you can ever do is be your best. If you have ever talked to a war hero they seldom, if ever, talk about how many people they killed or what they had to do to earn their status as hero. When I was very young I asked my dad if he ever killed anyone. He said he fired and they fell. When I got older I realized that you should never ask a soldier if he ever killed anyone. More than likely he doesn’t want to be reminded of it. Most men who see combat feel guilty. Guilty that they are still alive while their buddies aren’t. Guilty that they were “so good at killing.” Some men become better because of that guilt. Some worse. But once you kill some one you can’t take it back. It changes you. You no longer feel innocent. You’re no longer a kid.

Killing someone is the ultimate theft. You take away everything they had and everything they ever would’ve had. You end all their dreams and aspirations. Soldiers who have killed will think about it. They will have to come to terms with what they did. Like I said some deal with it in a positive way some in a negative. But deal with it they must.

Today we kill thousands of make believe people in games. Board games, miniature warfare games, RPGs, video games all cheapen the value of life to us. We kick in the door and slaughter goblins, or the “enemy,” or little plastic pieces representing 1 man or a whole army. Less of us will see war than in any other time in history. But we need to remember that there are a few stalwart men who give up a life of relative luxury to go off and be killed or maimed in our stead. It’s always been that way and it will probably always be so.

In conclusion killing in of itself is not wrong. It is morally neutral. Sometimes it is morally wrong to let someone live, “all it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to fail to act,” and sometimes it’s wrong to kill them. As far as I’m concerned John Wayne said it all in the film Big Jake, “There are two reasons to kill, survival and meat.” To what purpose do you kill?
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13)

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Re: Combat Ethics

Postby david welch » Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:07 pm

Good post! I like it.

However, a couple of things.

1st, I live in Knoxville TN, and I could take you on a 30 min car ride and put you in a place where settling "a matter of honor" could very well become lethal. There are places like this all over, and people get killed today, by having the viewpoint you wrote.

2nd, it is my opinion that you greatly overstate the effect of a clean kill on a soldier or police officer. I believe the constant, life changing guilt thing that is pushed is just wishful thinking, by people that wouldn't be there to begin with. A lot of the sheeple just can't handle the idea that somebody could make multiple kills, and then walk around among them going about without guilt and unaffected in their normal life.

David Welch
ARMA East Tennessee
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.


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