Thermopolye

[Filip Pobran]

do you seriously belive that there were 300 spartans? historians like(d) to exaggerate. they are talking about how their simple but brave, few but cunning fellows countrymen defeated large enemy.

[Martin_Wilkinson]

wasn't that story recorded at the time? and if so, isn't it more likely to be accurate, and not the imaginings of some historian. Besides it's entirely possible, unlikely but possible, for an army of 300 hundred to beat a million(?). Every good general knew how to use terrain to their advantage, Agincort is a major example of how much of an effect terrain can have on a battle.

Add to an advantage from the terrain, a highly trained unit, and you have a formula for success, so it's entirely possible.

Martin.

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Hi,

That the Spartans were 300, is entirelly possible if you look at the terrain and the exact happening. One million persian is probably an exaggeration, but not a meant one. "One million" often meant "damn lot of people".
Leonidas and his threehundred engaged the so called Immortal Tenthousand, an elite unit that is always kept at the same numbers (so getting inside was only possible if somebody died). That's awful lot of of fighters of course.
The Persians had some sense for honour, and the threehundred had helpers, just like knights did. Threehundred Spartans probably meant 1000 people, but all in one the persians had two options: to go (sail) round a rather big mountainside or take the small gap that was defended by Spartans (Thermophülae, Doors of Flame). What they actually did, was holding the persians up long enough for Sparta to have the time for getting ready.
And then imagine the Persians, being held up 3 days long by a small group of Spartan fighters suddenly facing 100.000! That battle never happened, for the Persians withdrew. I can imagine why. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
Btw. King Leonidas was around his 60ties in the battle!

Szab

[Filip Pobran]

i also think that 300 men ment "300 men with spears" (they counted spear bearers). my opinion is that BIIIG persians' army sent reconnaissance which was defeated by leonida's few. there were no war journalists, so what soliders talked, people wrote.


imagine fisherman and his big fish, which is every time he talks about it, bigger and bigger <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Attila DeWaal]

True. Often battle-accounts which have been passed on by mouth for a long period of time before they were comitted to paper will have an exaggeration magnitude of 10. (i.e. the 2000 charging horsemen were in reality no more then 200)

[Gene Tausk]

"i also think that 300 men ment "300 men with spears" (they counted spear bearers). my opinion is that BIIIG persians' army sent reconnaissance which was defeated by leonida's few."

Really? And you base this on what? Herodotus has proven to be accurate on many things about which he wrote. Why is the battle of Thermopolye somehow different? Why were the Persians delayed for three days while the "reconaissance" forces engaged the Spartans? Was the main branch of the army partying? Why did the Persian king himself observe this battle of a few skirmishers? It is estimated that the Persians lost 20,000 men at Thermopolye. Was this a "reconaissance" force? I guess the Persians were big on scouting ahead. Historians throughout the ages have confirmed this battle. Are you privy to some secret knowledge that disputes this? Please, share it with us.

I don't mind if you question history. I certainly expect it. However, if you are going to completely overturn one of the West's greatest battles, you better be prepared to back it up. So, I'm calling you out. Provide your sources. And, since this is an English-language forum, provide them in English.


---------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[Gene Tausk]

[list] This thread is off-topic from the original post, so a new thread is now started.


--------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[Andrew Adams]

There were 300 Sparatans. There were also a total of about 7000 Greeks. After the first or second day of fighting King Leonidas dismissed them. The Thebans, who's loyalty was in question, remained because of a vow they took to stay until the death. I think a contigent of Thespians also "elected" to remain. (The Thespians' had a democratic army not a professional one so their bravery is always noted as being extrordinary.) So these remaining 1000 or so soldiers (the largest portion probably being citizen soldiers) remained to be slaughtered. Thermopylae was the Greek-Persian Wars version of the Alamo. The Spartan led force held out long enough for the Greek fleet to be rebuilt and defeat the Persians (who's huge "million" man army had to be heavily supplied from the sea) at the key naval battle of Salmais while the land forces where defeated by another Spartan led force at Plataea.

So you are essentially correct there were more than just 300 Spartans present. But the fact remains that it wasn't until Xerxes suffered heavy losses including 2 brothers and many of his elite "Immortals" that he had the remaining Greeks slaughtered by arrows. Just like the Alamo the defenders "lost" but these few men held out long enough so the next battles would be won by the Greeks (and Texans).

(Sorry if some of this info may be a little wrong I am typing this from memory. But I think it is mostly if not all correct. I'll read up on Thermopylae over the weekend and submit any needed corrections on Monday.)

[Filip Pobran]

So, I'm calling you out.

a duel? <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
till drawing blood?

how many days i have to prepare references and such things?

[Gene Tausk]

"Thermopylae was the Greek-Persian Wars version of the Alamo. "

How do you know the Alamo was not the American-Mexican version of Thermopolye?

<img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />


-------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[Justin Lompado]

You beat me to the response!! lol. Great posts.

[Martin_Wilkinson]

Gene, more people are familiar with the Alamo.

Martin.

[William Ames]

There were 300 Spartans, 900 Helots, who were Spartan slaves, and 600 Thespians, for a total of 1800 men guarding Thermopylae after the majority of the army retreated.

As an interesting sidenote, the Spartans were impressed by the Thespians, who were all citizen soldiers, electing to remain behind with the Spartans, who were professionals. The Spartans gave the Thespians the signature Spartan red cloaks to wear during the battle, which possibly led to some confusion. The Spartan-Thespian alliance, forged as a consequence of this battle, proved to be one of the most lasting in the Greek world.

As to the Persians, Herodutus's numbers are generally considered exaggerated, but not to the same degree as Medieval historians. The Persian army almost certainly was in the one hundered to two hundered thousand range. The vast majority of them never made it into battle because of the narrowness of the pass. When one considers the size of the Persian Empire, and the amount of time spent preparing for this invasion, it's not at all unbeleivable.

[JeanryChandler]

I highly reccomend to anyone interested in this period to read The Ten Thousand of Xenophon. This was a mercenary force of Greeks who were brought to Persia in ships to fight on behalf of a pretender to the Persian throne, who then had to fight their way out of Persia on foot, which they did successfully. An incredible adventure and testament to the toughness of these Greek warriors.

Jr

[Gene Tausk]

"Gene, more people are familiar with the Alamo."

Not in Greece.


------------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside