Yet another would-be swordsman.

[Eric_Dohner]

Hello, all. I'm almost an utter newbie, if you count out having lurked here for a while and read obsessively. I have a slew of questions for you all that I couldn't seem to find the answers to online.

Firstly, I get the distinct impression that some degree of contact sparring is done with wasters, despite the fact that it "should" be done with padded weapons. For example, the second-from-the-bottom image at http://www.thearma.org/Practice/FreePlay.htm. Is this the case?

Secondly, if I have the resources to construct or buy wooden wasters, but not make padded contact-weapons, can sparring be performed safely with the former? I'd rather not lose an eye or testicle.

Thirdly, is there any martial value to joining the SCA? While there are a very few people whom I know of who would be interested in using the ARMA method, there's an SCA group nearby (Albany, NY) that I could conceivably join. Obviously, I'd still want to cross-train.

Fourthly, my right knee begins to bother me sporadically when it has weight placed upon it at about a ninety-degree angle (lunges with the right leg forward, for example). Will favoring it hinder me greatly?

[Randall Pleasant]

Hello Eric

Welcome to the ARMA forum. Here are some quick answers to your questions, just keep in mind that these are personal answers as I do not speak for ARMA or any other members. Hopefully some of the other scholars will add more detail.

I get the distinct impression that some degree of contact sparring is done with wasters, despite the fact that it "should" be done with padded weapons.

We do engage in Free Play with wasters and steel blunts which usually ranges from 1/4 to 3/4 speed. We use padded swords for full speed sparring. In all cases, safety depends upon good control, which is a subset of one's skill. A good protective cup and eye & face protection are required for safety. By the way, we have one of the best, if not the best, safety records of any European martial arts organization.

is there any martial value to joining the SCA

No! In the SCA you will only learn bad footwork, bad distance, and bad (non-historical) techniques.

my right knee begins to bother me... Will favoring it hinder me greatly?

Maybe, maybe not. One can only do the best they can. A few of us in ARMA, myself included, have bad knees. I actually blew out my knee about 30 minute before taking my first training with John Clements.


Good luck with your training,

[Eric_Dohner]

Thank you very much for the clarification and explanation. I appreciate your help very much.

[John_Clements]

Hi

Students conduct controlled free-play with wasters quite a lot, though it's necessary to work up to it and still good to supplement it with by sparring with padded contact wepaons as well as steel blunts.

We have dozens of Sca members in ARMA. But they all agree the mock combat games conducted therein are not close to the historical martial arts study we pursue.

If you have phsyiological limitations, learn to work around them while strengthening whatever natural talents you have to compensate.

JC

[Eric_Dohner]

Thanks for the reply. As regards the SCA: Do you think that they would evolve more historically-accurate combat tactics if the changes you mentioned in your articles (the Limping-Leg Rule and allowing knees-and-below strikes) were implemented?

Would such a game/sport be fairly accurate, in your opinion?

[DarrendiBattista]

Thirdly, is there any martial value to joining the SCA? While there are a very few people whom I know of who would be interested in using the ARMA method, there's an SCA group nearby (Albany, NY) that I could conceivably join. Obviously, I'd still want to cross-train.

I've been in the SCA for a number of years, and I can answer this with a authoritative "kinda". SCA armored combat is very little like authentic combat as far as I know, but it does have value from a martial sport perspective. SCA rapier combat, which is my thing, has recently reintroduced Cut & Thrust which allows for a lot of the 1400s techniques, and the normal heavy rapier rules fit very well with the study of period masters. My fencing repertoire is heavily influenced by my studies of diGrassi and Fabris, and others I know focus on Capoferro, Swetnam, and Marozzo.

Though the bar of admission is fairly low, and there are many people who are not serious students as a result, there are many, many very serious rapier fighters in the SCA who have extensive knowledge of historical masters.

I actually had a discussion about this recently with an SCA knight who was under the impression that rapier was more in the realm of martial sport (i.e. evolved on its own, without historical basis) like armored combat is. I gave the same response as above, stating that many of of have significant historical influences and libraries.

For the time period I study (1590-1603), the only historical techniques advocated by the masters I study that I have any difficulty in translating are the ones that require me to drive my sword all the way to the hilt-- which I'm fairly certain doesn't fly in ARMA either. We can't do grappling or strikes, but that's not a huge thing IMO; there are way too many people I'd have serious trust issues with otherwise.

[Matthew_Anderson]

"We can't do grappling or strikes, but that's not a huge thing IMO"

I couldn't disagree more, it definately is a huge thing in terms of the way you will fight under these rules. You will fight differently, in a much more unrealistic way, if you know your opponent can't grab you, trip you, or punch you. Even if you aren't actively seeking to come to grips, just knowing it could happen changes the fight significantly. We always include some degree of siezing, striking and grappling in all our freeplay, including rapier, it's not really a safety problem at all as long as people keep their egos in check and don't get carried away.

[Casper Bradak]

Thanks for the reply. As regards the SCA: Do you think that they would evolve more historically-accurate combat tactics if the changes you mentioned in your articles (the Limping-Leg Rule and allowing knees-and-below strikes) were implemented?

Would such a game/sport be fairly accurate, in your opinion?

It would not be. If you pursue this subject you should learn the differences quickly. Their differences go far beyond legal targets and oddly feigning injury. Our subject has no relation whatsoever to the SCA and it is neither their original intent nor their goal.

[DarrendiBattista]

You will fight differently, in a much more unrealistic way, if you know your opponent can't grab you, trip you, or punch you.

Eh, I've done plenty of backyard, no rules, hey-we're-all-friends-just-have-a-cup type things with full out grappling, throws, and so on and I have to say that in my experience the difference isn't that significant. But, that's just my experience and your mileage may vary.

Silver complains about a lack of grappling being taught in the Italian styles (which are what I study most) and posited that the longer blade makes grappling more likely in a single sword fight, which I'd probably agree with, but closing like that with sword and dagger is much more dangerous if not suicidal. Most of the grappling techniques I've seen have all been done with single sword.

I'd posit that this is a difference between dueling, with honor and so forth, and brawling in the streets. A decent number of manuals focus solely on honorable dueling, and since that is a major SCA culture thing, it's not unreasonable to assume that the honorable bit is the part being recreated rather than random street thuggery.

Martially speaking, you're absolutely right-- there is a difference in how you train. However, to clarify what I said earlier about the difference not being that significant, the people with whom I have my no-rules fun are mostly all trained martial artists in one form or another-- Marines, shotokan black belts, wrestlers, and so on. Coming to grips is very dangerous if both people know the other one knows what they're doing up close and personal, and what I find happens is that neither is willing to roll the dice on that when a good swordfight is much safer.

Then again, occassionally someone gets thrown across the lawn or ends up in a pile of bodies, but still-- it's uncommon. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

BTW, where and when is your practice? I live in the Richmond area and am very interested in doing some cross-training with ARMA as soon as my schedule allows me to travel a bit more freely on Sundays or weeknights. I *think* there's some kind of demo at the Mariner's Museum in July; maybe I'll see you there if not sooner.

[Allen Johnson]

Darrendi grazed a topic that I think is at the heart of the matter. He said,

"I'd posit that this is a difference between dueling, with honor and so forth, and brawling in the streets. A decent number of manuals focus solely on honorable dueling, and since that is a major SCA culture thing, it's not unreasonable to assume that the honorable bit is the part being recreated rather than random street thuggery."

The SCA ideal of chivalry and honor is highly vaulted in their society as opposed to the pure martial intent approach of ARMA. We dont care about dressing up and holding court and having good manners (in fighting- meaning that when we are working with eachother we are friendly but the fight is about the fight) and things like that. I really dont think any manual prior to about 1750 cares about this either. Its very much a win at any cost approach. I would certainly wager that the majority of the duels and fights that occured in history were of the street fight with thugs type rather than an arrangement between two gentlemen.

[Jay Vail]

it definately is a huge thing in terms of the way you will fight under these rules. You will fight differently, in a much more unrealistic way, if you know your opponent can't grab you, trip you, or punch you. Even if you aren't actively seeking to come to grips, just knowing it could happen changes the fight significantly. We always include some degree of siezing, striking and grappling in all our freeplay, including rapier, it's not really a safety problem at all as long as people keep their egos in check and don't get carried away.

Exactly.

[Matthew_Anderson]

"BTW, where and when is your practice? I live in the Richmond area and am very interested in doing some cross-training with ARMA as soon as my schedule allows me to travel a bit more freely on Sundays or weeknights. I *think* there's some kind of demo at the Mariner's Museum in July; maybe I'll see you there if not sooner".


We have group training on Saturday mornings, you would certainly be welcome to come and check it out anytime. You can reach me directly at androu3@cox.net

[Patrick Hardin]

Eric, the thing you have to understand about SCA combat is that it is a game, nothing more. It has a certain set of rules, and its members gain prestige by getting very good at playing within the limitations of those rules. Changing the rules might mean changing their prestigious status. Some within the SCA are more receptive to taking a more realistic approach, but others don't want the game to change, because they're good at it the way it is. Just understand that most SCA fighters are interested in being good at a game with a certain rule set, while we of the ARMA are interested in developing historical, realistic combat skills: fighting when it's not a game.

Patrick Hardin

[Eric_Dohner]

I've certainly gathered that much, Patrick, thank you. I'm sorry for causing a ruckus about it -- I certainly didn't mean to.

[Randall Pleasant]

Eric

No ruckus. You asked very valid questions and we provided truthful and honest answers.