Longbow's piercing full Plate Armour.

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Andrew Adams
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Re: Longbow's piercing full Plate Armour.

Postby Andrew Adams » Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:01 pm

I too have tried many times to convince people that plate armor will defeat bodkin arrows shot from longbows. I have read in many varying sources that longbows had a chance in defeating plate armor at around 200 yards but that real “kill” range was within 50 yards. However even at “point blank range” plate armor could defeat longbows. The real “power” of the longbow was more as a terror weapon than anything else. Some points to remember when dealing with people about the longbows power are:

1) To “defeat” an opponent you need not kill or even wound him. All you need to do is “put the fear of God” in him by making him “think” he can be killed or wounded. So that he breaks and runs away.
2) A longbows initial rate of fire of 10-12 arrows a minute with 5-6 arrows a minute sustained ROF means if you have massed archers you will be raining down an awful lot of arrows in a very short amount of time. These arrow showers will disrupt cohesiveness in a unit and frighten or panic horses. When the enemies scattered line hits your solid line you will smash him.
3) Only the “English” (English, Scots, Irish, Welsh) ever had effective longbow units.
4) It takes a lifetime to make a skilled longbowman. You need to have “special” circumstances to have the ability to raise up an effective longbow force. Social advantages (such as hunting and weapons possession), genetics, and adequate diet are all needed to make an effective longbowman (a situation only seen in the British Isles). It should be noted that England was the only nation at the time that had a large “Yeoman” population. France and Germany in contrast kept all non-martial social classes from possessing weapons.
5) At Crecy, Poitiers, and Agincourt (English defeats of the French attributed to the longbow) all have special factors as to why the French lost. The longbow was a contributing factor not necessarily the deciding one.
6) The longbow was never successfully used in an offensive capacity. Longbowmen stood in defensive positions they didn’t attack. True the English were on the offensive in France but when the battle lines were drawn up the archers were deployed on the flanks in defensive positions with the intention of driving the enemy towards the English knights during the French assault. Longbowmen never marched forward using their arrows as a rolling barrage or to soften up an opponent's line (much as artillery is used today) to drive the French back and allow an assault force to take ground. Longbowmen had to stand in their defensive positions and pray the knights didn’t break through.

However the fact remains that until you hand a skeptic a longbow and let him shoot at plate armor (if he can even draw the heavy weight bows) and he sees the arrows bounce off or shatter on impact you really won’t dissuade too many people of the longbows “killer” myth.
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13)

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Filip Pobran
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Re: Longbow's piercing full Plate Armour.

Postby Filip Pobran » Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:17 pm

try to shoot any bow point blank to some hard wood plank - it would not penetrate so deep as from distance.

i am SURE that bullet had less power point blank, than on distance. i know that issue "my-friend-policeman-said-so" isn't good, but, "he told me so"

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Attila DeWaal
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Re: Longbow's piercing full Plate Armour.

Postby Attila DeWaal » Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:39 am

try to shoot any bow point blank to some hard wood plank - it would not penetrate so deep as from distance.

i am SURE that bullet had less power point blank, than on distance. i know that issue "my-friend-policeman-said-so" isn't good, but, "he told me so"


*shakes head* Life comes up and bites me in the butt. After a looong absence I finally return. And what do I read? *sigh*

What you are saying is both a violation of the law of physics and common sense.

But how about you defend your stance with some logic? Why do you think a bullet or arrow would be less damaging at point blank range as opposed to being fired from a long distance?

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Randall Pleasant
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Re: Longbow's piercing full Plate Armour.

Postby Randall Pleasant » Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:56 am

Filip

I agree with Attila. It would indeed be a violation of the law of physics. However, I think your error is caused by a confusion of what Point Blank is to a bow. Point Blank should <u>not</u> be considered at the point of the arrow when the bow is at full pull. This would not allow the bow to transfer all of its stored engery into the arrow, thus the arrow would not be traviling at its max speed. Point Blank is actually at the distance where the arrow completely leaves contact with the bow for only at this point is it clear that the bow has transfered all of engery its to arrow. From this point on the arrow will be losing engery, ie its penetration power. I don't know why anyone might feel the need to test this but if you do don't forget to take into account the shooter altering his form due to the close target.

Likewise, at the point where a bullet completely leaves a gun the bullet is at its max power. The bullet cannot gain any more power (speed) after this point because there is nothing to transfer more power to it. Thus, from this point on the bullet, like the arrow, will containue to lose power.
Ran Pleasant

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Filip Pobran
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Re: Longbow's piercing full Plate Armour.

Postby Filip Pobran » Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:44 pm

at the beginning of it's trajectory, arrow disperses much of energy on vibrating due to archer's paradox and i think that is reason for not piercing.



(i took time and checked experiments on lbw. vs. plate - some succeeded, some didn't)

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Attila DeWaal
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Re: Longbow's piercing full Plate Armour.

Postby Attila DeWaal » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:48 pm

I do not believe the vibration would have much effect on the piercing qualities at all (considering that the head is on of the still-points of vibration effect), and besides that, vibration should be an issue at a range of 20ft.

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Jeremy Martin
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Re: Longbow's piercing full Plate Armour.

Postby Jeremy Martin » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:54 pm

I figured the bullet just needed time to shift into 5th gear.
"I've had brain surgery, whats your excuse?"

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Filip Pobran
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Re: Longbow's piercing full Plate Armour.

Postby Filip Pobran » Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:02 pm


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Filip Pobran
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Re: Longbow's piercing full Plate Armour.

Postby Filip Pobran » Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:21 pm

Likewise, at the point where a bullet completely leaves a gun the bullet is at its max power. The bullet cannot gain any more power (speed) after this point because there is nothing to transfer more power to it. Thus, from this point on the bullet, like the arrow, will containue to lose power.
yes, it loses the power, id est cinetic energy transferes to potential. at the highest point of it's trajectory curve, potential energy starts to transfer to cinetic - the arrow gains more and more power. at one point, it should have the same power as on the begining.


now... why are archers and artillery on higher ground? for the same reason why arrow stick into dirt when you let it drop from your hand (YOU did NOT give it any energy)

david welch
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Re: Longbow's piercing full Plate Armour.

Postby david welch » Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:28 pm

yes, it loses the power, id est cinetic energy transferes to potential. at the highest point of it's trajectory curve, potential energy starts to transfer to cinetic - the arrow gains more and more power. at one point, it should have the same power as on the begining.


Except that you are not in a vacuum. You lose energy to drag as you reach the highest point, so you still have more kinetic energy at 5 feet from the bow than you have in potential energy at the highest arc of your flight. Otherwise you could take an airplane, fly to the highest altitude you wanted to fly, and turn the engines off. Then you could just keep diving, gaining speed, and then using the kinetic energy you gained from the dive to return to your previous altitude. It just doesn't work like that.

now... why are archers and artillery on higher ground? for the same reason why arrow stick into dirt when you let it drop from your hand (YOU did NOT give it any energy)


Yes, you did give it energy. You gave it potential energy when you picked it up.
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Randall Pleasant
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Re: Longbow's piercing full Plate Armour.

Postby Randall Pleasant » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:30 pm

Filip

At some point you must give over to logic, reason, and common sense. You are arguing against the Laws of Physics. Anything that you say about the physical world that is not supported by the Laws of Physics is wrong! This thread has gotten off topic to the point where some of us are trying to teach you basic physics. Let us close out the Science 101 class and return to discussing the original topic Longbow's piercing full Plate Armour.
Ran Pleasant

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Filip Pobran
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Re: Longbow's piercing full Plate Armour.

Postby Filip Pobran » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:03 pm

<img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> sorry

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Randall Pleasant
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Re: Longbow's piercing full Plate Armour.

Postby Randall Pleasant » Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:36 pm

On the long road to swordsmenship we all hit a few bumps. <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
Ran Pleasant

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Filip Pobran
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Re: Longbow's piercing full Plate Armour.

Postby Filip Pobran » Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:22 am

well, however, some bows did pierce some plate armours, some did not.
everybody sent pics of unpierced armours here are some of pierced... 1

2
3 4


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