Important new article on the Crusades

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Important new article on the Crusades

Postby John_Clements » Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:56 am

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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby Bill Welch » Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:41 am

Finally an article that shows some truth about the Crusades, and doesn't paint the knights of Christendom, as blood thursty lunatics, that just want to kill the poor defenseless muslems of Islam.
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby david welch » Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:44 am

This is a great article. I have been a fan of Prof. Madden's work for a long time, and have shared it with people whenever possible. It makes me proud to belong to an organization that not only makes this kind of effort to correct these longstanding misconceptions of our own history, but that is also willing to take a position unpopular in modern culture and be an unashamedly strong defender of the ideals of Western Civilization.
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:09 pm

Quite the contrary: Popes, bishops, and preachers made it clear that the Jews of Europe were to be left unmolested. In a modern war, we call tragic deaths like these "collateral damage."


Pogroms are collateral damage?!!!

Even with smart technologies, the United States has killed far more innocents in our wars than the Crusaders ever could. But no one would seriously argue that the purpose of American wars is to kill women and children.


No modern American army that I know of ever systematically hacked civilians to pieces (including women and children)as the Crusaders did in Jerusalem according to their own journals, or as Richard Lionheart did.

No American soldiers I ever heard of ever ate civilians as the crusaders did in Anatolia in the first crusade according to their own journals.

I'm sorry, I'm all for new ways of looking at history, but this is a really gross attempt at revisionism, suspiciously in sinc IMHO with certain current political events. Even if you are for the ideals of the crusades, I really don't grasp how a serious historian could justify or rationalize the implementation, the methods used. They were out to save Christianity? How come they ended up sacking the greatest center of Christianity in the world Constantinople!!!?

No doubt there were sincere and pious people involved in the Crusades. Bernard of Clariveaux was in his own way, as was St. Louis. But there were also a whole lot of people who were anything but.

Kingdom of Heaven may have been a silly movie in many ways, but Reynard de Chatillion was a real person. Look him up for yourself.

My advice is to stick to primary sources. Read some of the chronicles and journals. The Alexiad by Ana Comnenea is a good place to start. And for that matter the much reviled BBC documentary quotes many primary sources and has a good biboliography of them.

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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby Stacy Clifford » Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:11 pm

How come they ended up sacking the greatest center of Christianity in the world Constantinople!!!?


Jeanry, maybe you overlooked it, but this is addressed in the article:

The Fourth Crusade (1201-1204) ran aground when it was seduced into a web of Byzantine politics, which the Westerners never fully understood. They had made a detour to Constantinople to support an imperial claimant who promised great rewards and support for the Holy Land. Yet once he was on the throne of the Caesars, their benefactor found that he could not pay what he had promised. Thus betrayed by their Greek friends, in 1204 the Crusaders attacked, captured, and brutally sacked Constantinople, the greatest Christian city in the world. Pope Innocent III, who had previously excommunicated the entire Crusade, strongly denounced the Crusaders. But there was little else he could do.


If that's the case, then I would say the Crusaders' anger was justified, although obviously their vast overreaction in response clearly was not. However, human nature being what it is, they were an armed mob in exactly the right place and time to vent their anger at its intended target, which is about the worst case scenario I can imagine. Once the mob mentality takes hold, Christian restraint goes out the window tied to a brick, and history is left with another stain in the heat of the moment.
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby Jake_Norwood » Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:28 pm

Ack, I dunno. I really liked the article. A lot. A nice, fresh look. I've had instructors that but the Russian-Afghan war in a similar context very convincingly.

I very strongly believe that, regardless of what "Islam" is or isn't overall, there is certainly a counter-crusade at this very moment. A few things about war, IMO:

-Nobody is "wrong" in their own eyes. The Iraqi insurgents and terrorists see themselves as Mujahadeen and freedom fighters. I've watched some of what they do and it's horrible and evil...but in their eyes it's justified.

The sacking of Constantinople, I assue you, made perfect sense to those performing it at the time. Whether it was on economic, religious, or military grounds it all focused on one thing at the time--survival and pushing forward to a larger goal which was itself tied to survival in the eyes of those that performed it.

Don't take this as some kind of relativisim--I don't believe that everyone is equally good or right and just "different." I believe that certain cultures are "lower" than others and that certain groups or philosophies are "evil." But in the eyes of the individual whether it's George W., Zarqawi, Richard the Lionhearted or Salah ad Din they're all right and all either righteous or at least "practical."

War is horrible. Chivlary and other such conventions, I believe, were put in place to help people cope with both what they did and what they might have to do (cf. Susan French's "Warrior's Code"). Chivalry, contrary to modern revisions, was neither the Selohaar ideal nor was it the horrible hypocritical mess that is preached at many modern universities. It was a necessary convention for the stability of a warrior culture.

Was the sacking of Constantinople bad? If you lived there, probably. Did it fund the rest of that campaign, motivating future soldiers to inure themselves against the pain and risk of war in favor of future such spoils? Nowadays we spur re-inlistement through fat bonuses and cushy FOBs in the middle of a warzone. The re-enlistment bonus of yesteryear was rape and pillage. Grisly to us, yeah, but some cultures (vikings, anyone) lived for it.

Right and wrong are for the future and the past. In times of war what is, is. If it took the decimation of lots of civilians in collateral damage or something else to preserve myself, my family, my tribe, my clan, my nation, whatever...I've been faced with those decisions, and I made them.

The danger in looking back on the crusades is to see it through our own eyes in our own soft and easy times. I promise that no veteran of any war sees the crusades the same way as a professor...they may hate them more or feel that they were justified (as I largely do), but they see the survival of the individual and of the group differently.

Nobody went on the crusades "just for fun," though I don't doubt that some enjoyed the things they did (even the horrible things).

I applaud the article's author for taking a new stance, and bringing some issues on the crusade to light that prevent it from being the closed book of "the west is evil...see!" that the crusades generally have become.

I also know that nothing is simple. Ever.

Jeanry,

good call on original sources! It's the ony way to go.

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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:41 pm

Stacy and Jake,

I have a lot of respect for both of you guys, I know you are both honorable people with an interest in true history. I do not know if you have done a lot of research on the Crusades in particular or not. I have, and all I can say is, please don't let this brief essay serve as your guideline, do some research on your own.

I am impressed by the bravery of the Crusaders, some of the events are truly inspiring (the breaking of the Seige of Antioch for example). But I can put it in context. The ultimate argument to me against the implementation of the Crusades is that it led to their repeated failure, to the death and capture of tens of thousands of knights and warriros and civilians alike, to disaster and reprisal, the fall of the kingdoms of Outramer and the loss of access to the Holy Lands.

As for the fourth Crusade, I believe the historical consensus is that the whole thing was orchestrated from the beginning in the most cynical possible manner by the Doge of Venice. Trying to rationalize it to me is utterly Orwellian. Again, don't take my word for it, check it out for yourselves.

(and no Jake, the 4th Crusade did not lead to any renewal of a drive into the Holy land!)

Respectfully,

Jeanry
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:54 pm

Another thought.... if you try to imagine the Crusades as a harsh but necessary exorcise in self defense, I think when you look at it hard you will find very little actual evidence to support that. The arabs, persians and egyptians were not any kind of direct threat to Europe. On the other hand, the Turks were, but you didn't see any mad push into the steppes. Not much to gain out there but a few goats. On that note, one thing which would make a lot of sense to me on the principle of defending Christianity, would have been to launch a massive Crusade against the Mongols, as was planned briefly at one point before they turned back from Poland and Hungary. It would have made sense to continue with the Crusade idea and smash the grip of the heathen mongols from the throat of the Christiain Russian people, if thats your belief.

Instead, the Europeans, led by the Teutonic Knights, launched Crusades against the Russians, who had to fight the Mongols simultaneously! (Read about Alexander Nevsky who won victories against both, as well as the Swedes)

A lot of times this sort of justification can lead to an excuse for just another bully. It remeinds me of the Skinheads back in the day in New Orleans. They argued, convincingly, that those of us in the subculture in particular did not do enough to defend ourselves against crime from outsiders, especially minority commmunities. "Our" people were mugged, shot, beaten, and raped, and nobody ever did anything about it. Hard to argue with that. Pretty soon they had a large clique, armed with bats and brass knuckles. But did they defend anybody from badass gangsters? No they actually beat up a lot of hippies, goths, and the occasional isolated punk rocker, anybody they saw as 'liberal'. They smashed up gay bars. They beat up tourists bringing down the authorities on the whole "alternative" scene. They were a menace, and we drove them out. We learned we had to take responsibility for our own actions and our the defense of our own community.

Edit:

We learned that the ends do not justify the means. The ends are the means.

JR
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby david welch » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:42 pm

if you try to imagine the Crusades as a harsh but necessary exorcise in self defense, I think when you look at it hard you will find very little actual evidence to support that. The arabs, persians and egyptians were not any kind of direct threat to Europe.


Nope, they were no threat at all. Here is an abreviated list of their peacful activities...

632 AD- Islamic jihadists conquer Yemen
632AD- Invasion of Abyssynia ( Ethiopia) . Islamic jihadist forces repelled.
633 AD- repeated Islamic military campaigns subdue the desert tribes of Arabia(Saudi Arabia)
635 AD- Islamic armies attack and conquer Damascus(Syria)
637 AD- Persians(Iranians)defeated at battle of Qadisiyya by Islamic forces
637 AD-fall of Iraq
638 AD- Jerusalem falls
639 AD- Syria falls to Islamic forces
640 AD- Egypt falls into Islamic hands, Coptic Church destroyed
688 AD- Fall of Carthage,
688 AD Islamic followers build the Dome of the Rock on the former site of the Temple of Solomon, the holiest site in Judaism and Christianity.
702 AD- Berbers in Africa captured and converted
705-708 AD- Occupation of North Africa
711-713 AD- Capture of Spain and Portugal by Arab expansionists
715-717 AD- Afghanistan,central Asia, and the northern limit of the Caspian Sea and much of Northern India captured by Arab forces.
718 AD- Islamic forces attack France
725 AD- Islamic armies institute a siege of Toulouse, raid Burgundy and Rhone.
732 AD- Bordeaux comes under siege, and Islamic armies advance to Poitiers, where they are soundly defeated by Charles Martel.
750 AD to circa 11th Century- Period of Islamic stagnation. The restart of the Islamic conquest triggers the crusades.
11th Century AD- Islamic forces penetrate Africa south of the Sahara
12-14 AD- Islamic occupation of northern India
14-16th Centuries AD- Islamic forces conquer Indonesia
15th Century AD- Constantinople falls.
1683 AD- Battle of Vienna, Austria. Decisive loss for Islam
1804- Islamic Forces conquer Nigeria
1815 AD- Naval victories ended tribute payments by the U.S. to the Islamic Barbary pirates, although some European nations continued annual payments until the 1830s.
20th Century- Britain conquers and partitions the majority of the Middle East in the wake of WWI. 1948- Islamic self rule is re-initiated in former British colonies, as well as the founding of the Nation of Israel
1979-Present- Modern Islamic revival, and the beginnings of the War on Terror. Soviet invasion of Afghanistan begins the Islamic Muhjadeen uprising. Ayatollah Khomeini overthrows the Shah of Iran, institutes Islamic law in Iran
1982-84 AD- Attacks on US forces In Beirut, Israeli Invasion of Lebanon to stop Islamic attacks 1980's- Hostage kidnappings in Lebanon
1990's - large scale terrorist attacks against American and Israeli targets by Islamic terrorists, Persian Gulf war
2000-USS Cole attacks
2001- World trade Center attacks
2001- Afghan War
2003- Iraqi War

Of course, it is a lot easier if you just look at the 100 years of peace leading up to the first Crusade...

c. 0950AD- Catholicism becomes prevalent and dominant religion throughout Europe.

0950AD- According to traditional historiography, Europe enters Dark Ages.

0953AD- Emperor Otto I sends representatives to Cordova to ask Caliph Abd al-Rahman III to call off some Muslim raiders who had set themselves up in Alpine passes and are attacking merchant caravans going in and out of Italy.

0961AD- Death of Abd al-Rahman III, generally regarded as the greatest of the Umayyad caliphs in Andalusia. Under his rule, Cordova became one of the most powerful centers of Islamic learning and power. He is succeeded by Abdallah, a caliph who would kill many of his rivals (even family members) and has captured Christians decapitated if they refuse to convert to Islam.

0961AD- Under the command of general Nicephorus Phokas, the Byzantines recapture Crete from Muslim rebels who had earlier fled Cordova.

0965AD- Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus Phokas reconquers Cyprus from the Muslims.

0965AD- Grenoble is recaptured from the Muslims.

0969AD- The Fatimid dynasty (Shi'ite) takes Egypt from the Ikshidids and assumes the title of caliphate in Egypt until 1171 AD.

0969AD- Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus II Phocas reconquers Antioch (modern Antakya, capital of the province Hatay) from the Arabs.

0972AD- The Fatimids of Egypt conquer north Africa.

0972AD- The Muslims in the Sisteron district of France surrender to Christian forces and their leader asks to be baptized.

0981AD- Eric the Red is exiled from Iceland and settles in a new land he called Greenland in order to attract settlers.

0981AD- Ramiro III, king of Leon, is defeated by Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir (Almanzor) at Rueda and is forced to begin paying tribute to the Caliph of Cordova.

0985AD- Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir sacks Barcelona

0994AD- The monastery of Monte Cassino is destroyed a second time by Arabs.

0995AD- Japanese literary and artistic golden age begins under Emperor Fujiwara Michinaga (ruled 0995 - 1028).

July 03, 0997AD- Under the leadership of Almanzor, Muslim forces march out of the city of Cordova and head north to capture Christian lands.

August 11, 0997AD- Muslim forces under Almanzor arrive at the city of Compostela. The city had been evacuated and Almanzor burns it to the ground.

0998AD- Venice conquers the Adriatic port of Zara. The Venetians would eventually lose the city to the Hungarians and, in 1202, they offer a deal to soldiers of the Fourth Crusade: capture the city again for them in exchange for passage to Egypt.

c. 1000AD- Chinese perfect the production and use of gunpowder.

1000AD- The Seljuk (Saljuq) Turkish Empire is founded by an Oghuz Turkish bey (chieftain) named Seljuk. Originally from the steppe country around the Caspian Sea, the Seljuks are the ancestors of the Western Turks, present-day inhabitants of Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Azerbaijan.

August 08, 1002AD- Death of Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir, ruler of Al-Andalus, on the way back from raiding the Rioja region.

1004AD- Arab raiders sack the Italian city of Pisa.

1007AD- Birth of Isaac I Comnenus, Byzantine emperor. Founder of the dynasty of the Comneni, Isaac's government reforms may have helped the Byzantine Empire last longer.

1009AD- The Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem is destroyed by Muslim armies.

1009AD- Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, founder of the Druze sect and sixth Fatimid Caliph in Egypt, orders the Holy Sepulcher and all Christian buildings in Jerusalem be destroyed. In Europe a rumor develops that a "Prince of Babylon" had ordered the destruction of the Holy Sepulcher at the instigation of the Jews. Attacks on Jewish communities in cities like Rouen, Orelans, and Mainz ensue and this rumor helps lay the basis for massacres of Jewish communities by Crusaders marching to the Holy Land.

1009AD- Sulaimann, grandson of Abd al-Rahman III, returns over 200 captured fortresses to the Castilians in return for massive shipments of food for his army.

1012AD- Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, founder of the Druze sect and sixth Fatimid Caliph in Egypt, orders the destruction of all Christian and Jewish houses of worship in his lands.

1012AD- Berber forces capture Cordova and order that half the population be executed.

1013AD- Jews are expelled from the Umayyad Caliphate of Cordova, then ruled by Sulaimann.

1015AD- Arab Muslim forces conquer Sardinia.

1016AD- The Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem is partially destroyed by earthquakes.

1020AD- Merchants from Amalfi and Salerno are granted permission by the Egyptian Caliph to build a hospice in Jerusalem. Out of this would eventually grow The Order of Knights of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem (also known as: Knights of Malta, Knights of Rhodes, and most commonly as Knights Hospitaller).

1021AD- Caliph al-Hakim proclaimed himself to be divine and founded the Druze sect.

1022AD- Several Cathar heretics are discovered in Toulouse and put to death.

1023AD- Muslims expel the Berber rulers from Cordova and install Abd er-Rahman V as caliph.

1025AD- The power of the Byzantine Empire begins to decline.

1026AD- Richard II of Normandy leads a group of several hundred armed men on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land in the belief that the Day of Judgment had arrived. Turkish control of the region hampers their goals, however.

1027AD- The Frankish protectorate over Christian interests in Jerusalem is replaced by a Byzantine protectorate. Byzantine leaders begin the reconstruction of the Holy Sepulcher.

1029AD- Alp Arslan, "The Lion Hero," is born. Arslan is the son of Togrul Beg, conqueror of Baghdad who made himself ruler of the Caliphate, and great-grandson of Seljuk, founder of the Seljuk Turkish empire.

1031AD- The Moorish Caliphate of Cordoba falls.

1031AD- The emir of Aleppo has the Krak des Chevaliers contructed.

1033AD- Castile is retaken from the Arabs.

1035AD- The Byzantines make a landing in Sicily, but don't try to recapture the island from the Muslims.

1038AD- The Seljuk Turks become established in Persia.

1042AD- The rise of the Seljuk Turks begins.

1045 - 1099AD- Life of Ruy Diaz de Vivar, known as El Cid (Arabic for "lord"), national hero of Spain. El Cid would become famous for his efforts to drive the Moors out of Spain.

May 18, 1048AD- Persian poet Umar Khayyam is born. His poem The Rubaiyat became popular in the West because of its use by Victorian Edward Fitzgerald.

1050 - 1200AD- The first agricultural revolution of Medieval Europe begins in 1050 AD with a shift to the northern lands for cultivation, a period of improved climate from 700 AD to 1200 AD in western Europe, and the widespread use and perfection of new farming devices. Technological innovations include the use of the heavy plow, the three-field system of crop rotation, the use of mills for processing cloth, brewing beer, crushing pulp for paper manufacture, and the widespread use of iron and horses. With an increase in agricultural advancements, Western towns and trade grow exponentially and Western Europe returns to a money economy.

1050AD- Duke Bohemond I (Bohemond Of Taranto, French Boh mond De Tarente), prince of Otranto (1089–1111) is born. One of the leaders of the First Crusade, Bohemond would be largely responsible for the capture of Antioch and he secures the title Prince of Antioch (1098 - 1101, 1103 - 04).

1050AD- Byzantine emperor Constantine IX Monomachos restores the complex of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem.

1054AD- A famine in Egypt forces al Mustansir, 8th Fatimid caliph, to seek food and other commercial assistance from Italy and the Byzantine Empire.

July 16, 1054AD- Great Schism: The Western Christian Church, in an effort to further enhance its power, had tried to impose Latin rites on Greek churches in southern Italy in 1052; as a consequence, Latin churches in Constantinople were closed. In the end, this leads to the excommunication of Michael Cerularius, patriarch of Constantinople (who in turn excommunicates Pope Leo IX). Although generally regarded as a minor event at the time, today it is treated as the final event that sealed the Great Schism between Eastern and Western Christianity.

1055AD- Seljuk Turks capture Baghdad.

1056AD- The Almoravid (al-Murabitun) Dynasty begins its rise to power. Taking the name "those who line up in defense of the faith," this is a group of fanatical Berber Muslims who would rule North Africa and Spain until 1147.

1061AD- Roger Guiscard lands at Sicily with a large Norman force and captures the city of Masara. The Norman reconquest of Sicily would require another 30 years.

1063AD- Alp Arslan succeeds his father, Togrul Beg, as ruler of the Baghdad Caliphate and the Seljuk Turks.

1064AD- The Seljuk Turks conquer Christian Armenia.

September 29, 1066 William the Conqueror invades England and claims the English throne at the Battle of Hastings. Because William is both the King of England and the Duke of Normandy, The Norman Conquest fuses French and English cultures. The language of England evolves into Middle English with an English syntax and grammar and a heavily French vocabulary.

1067AD- Romanus IV Diogenes becomes the Byzantine Emperor.

1068 Alp Arslan invades the Byzantine Empire and is repulsed by Romanus IV Diogenes over the course of three campaigns. Not until 1070, though, would the Turks be driven back across the Euphrates river.

1070AD- Seljuk Turks capture Jerusalem from the Fatimids. Seljuk rule is not quite as tolerant as that of the Fatimids and Christian pilgrims begin returning to Europe with tales of persecution and oppression.

1070AD- Brother Gerard, a leader of the Benedictine monks and nuns who run the hospices in Jerusalem. beings to organize The Order of Knights of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem (also known as: Knights of Malta, Knights of Rhodes, and most commonly as Knights Hospitaller) as a more military force for the active protection of Christian pilgrims.

1071AD- Normans conquer the last Byzantine holdings in Italy.

1071 - 1085AD- Seljuk Turks conquer most of Syria and Palestine.

August 19, 1071AD- Battle of Manzikert: Alp Arslan leads an army of Seljuk Turks against the Byzantine Empire near Lake Van. Numbering perhaps as many as 100,000 men, the Turks take the fortresses of Akhlat and Manzikert before Byzantine Emperor Romanus IV Diogenes can respond. Although Diogenes is able to recapture Akhlat, the siege of Manzikert fails when a Turkish relief force arrives and Andronicus Ducas, an enemy of Romanus Diogenes, refuses to obey orders to fight. Diogenes himself is captured and released, but he would be murdered after his return to Constantinople. Partly because of the defeat at Manzikert and partly due to the civil wars following the murder of Digoenes, Asia Minor would be left open to Turkish invasion.

1072AD- Tancred of Hauteville is born. A grandson of Robert Guiscard and nephew of Bohemund of Taranto, Tancred would become a leader of the First Crusade and eventually regent of the Principality of Antioch.

December 15, 1072AD- Malik Shah I, son of Alp Arslan, succeeds his father as Seljuk Sultan.

1073AD- Seljuk Turks conquer Ankara.

July 1074AD- El Cid marries Jimena, niece of Alfonso IV of Castile and daughter of the Count of Oviedo.

1076AD- First recorded execution in England by the ax: the Earl of Huntingdon.

1078AD- Seljuk Turks capture Nicaea. It would change hands three more times, finally coming under control of the Turks again in 1086.

1079AD- Battle of Cabra: El Cid led his troops to a rout of Emir Abd Allah of Granada.

1080AD- Order of the Hospital of St. John is founded in Italy. This special order of knights was dedicated to guarding a pilgrim hospital, or hostel, in Jerusalem.

1080AD- An Armenian state is founded in Cilicia, a district on the southeastern coast of Asia Minor (Turkey), north of Cyprus, by refugees feeling the Seljuk invasion of their Armenian homeland. A Christian kingdom located in the midst of hostile Muslim states and lacking good relations with the Byzantine Empire, "Armenia Minor" would provide important assistance to Crusaders from Europe.

1081 - 1118AD- Alexius I Comnenus is Byzantine emperor.

1081AD- El Cid, now a mercenary because he had been exiled by Alfonso IV of Castile, enters the service of the Moorish king of the northeast Spanish city of Zaragosa, al-Mu'tamin, and would remain there for his successor, al-Mu'tamin II.

1082AD- Ibn Tumart, founder of the Amohad Dynasty, is born in the Atlas mountains.

1084AD- Seljuk Turks conquer Antioch, a strategically important city.

October 25, 1085AD- The Moors are expelled from Toledo, Spain, by Alfonso VI.

October 23, 1086AD- Battle of Zallaca (Sagrajas): Spanish forces under Alfonso VI of Castile are defeated by the Moors and their allies, the Almorivids (Berbers from Morocco and Algeria, led by Yusef I ibn Tashufin), thus preserving Muslim rule in al-Andalus. The slaughter of Spaniards was great and Yusef refused to abide by his agreement to leave Andalusia in the hands of the Moors. His intention was actually to make Andalusia an African colony ruled by the Almorivids in Morocco.

1087AD- After his crushing defeat at Zallaqa, Alfonso VI swallows his pride and recalls El Cid from exile.

September 13, 1087AD- Birth of John II Comnenus, Byzantine emperor.

1088AD- Patzinak Turks begin forming settlements between the Danube and the Balkans.

March 12, 1088AD- Urban II is elected pope. An active supporter of the Gregorian reforms, Urban would become responsible for launching the First Crusade.

1089AD- Byzantine forces conquer the island of Crete.

1090AD- Yusuf Ibn Tashfin, King of the Almoravids, captures Granada.

1091AD- The Normans recapture Sicily from the Muslims.

1091AD- Cordova (Qurtuba) is captured by the Almoravids.

1092AD- After the death of Seljuk Sultan (al-sultan , "the power") Malik Shah I, the capital of the Seljuks is moved from Iconjium to Smyrna and the empire itself dissolves into several smaller states.

May 1094AD- El Cid captures Valencia from the Moors, carving out his own kingdom along the Mediterranean that is only nominally subservient to Alfonso VI of Castile. Valencia would be both Christian and Muslim, with adherents of both religions serving in his army.

August 1094AD- The Almoravids from Morocco land near Cuarte and lay siege to Valencia with 50,000 men. El Cid, however, breaks the siege and forces the Amoravids to flee - the first Christian victory against the hard-fighting Africans.

November 18, 1095AD- Pope Urban II opens the Council of Clermont where ambassadors from the Byzantine emperor Alexius I Comnenus, asking help against the Muslims, were warmly received.



Nope, I didn't see any evidence of Islamic military expansionism there. Nope, none at all.
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:57 pm

0981AD- Eric the Red is exiled from Iceland and settles in a new land he called Greenland in order to attract settlers.


Nice timeline David, but I really don't know what your point is. Nothing in there shows where Arabs, Egyptians or Persians were planning to invade Europe, and the Moors in Spain were being pushed out.

Do you think it wouldn't be just as easy to come up with a list of "Christian" aggression? I've said my peace. I reccomend anyone not already certain of the truth one way or another do their own research.

Jr
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby Aaron Pynenberg » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:58 pm

Jeanry....I must admitt that i do not have the background in the history books yet to argue about your claims, they strike me from a distance as being interesting, but probably a little one sided- while my physical skills are progressing, I am trying to build my knowledge base as well can you cite some sources for some of these points you were making?
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby John_Clements » Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:36 pm

Jeanry, you are misreading the article. Prof. Madden is not a revisionist, he's a historian correcting decades of revisionism ---using those very primary sources that so frequently have been selectively ignored. Quite refreshing.

If you need yet another historian of the crusades echoing him, try this:


Prof. Christopher Tyerman on the crusades - NPR interview

and the transcript:

Crusade history audio
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:47 pm

OK, I don't think I'm taking a radical position. I'm certainly not anti-European, far from it, and I'm not saying Europeans were the worst people in the world in their day by any means. Thats a far cry from justifying the Crusades. I just think you got to call a spade a spade. None of what I mentioend is anything but mainstream history, this article is the revisionist stance IMHO.

Some sources, most of my library was destroyed in Katrina but

The Alexiad by Ana Comnena, is a book written by a Princess of Byzantium during the first Crusade. It's a fascinating first person source that if not unbiased, you could think of the closest thign to a neutral observer, the very people on whose behalf the Crusade was nominally called.

Generally I'd reccomend military histories as being less biased since their focus is usually on the technical aspects of fighting rather than who was right or wrong. For really quick but usually accurate and throrough overview, the Osprey military histories are good.

If you can stomach reading words of the enemy, "The Crusades through Arab Eyes" by Amin Maalouf is a very interesting read.

The Crusades of the 14th century including the unbelievably horibble Albigensian Crusade are well covered in the Distant Mirror of Barbara Tuchman. Dungeon, Fire and Sword : The Knights Templar in the Crusades by John J. Robinson is a really good well regarded overview of the Role of the Templars in the Crusades, good bad and indifferent.

The Christian lords themselves commented on the cannibalism. Raoul of Caen says, "Our soldiers boiled the adults, placed the children on spits and would eat them after roasting them." Albert of Aix adds, "Our men would eat not only Turks and Saracens but also dogs."

Raoul of Caen's journals were published in a book called " Collection des Memoires Relatifs al'Histoire de France " in the 19th century. I don't know if thats been translated to English or not.

Albert of Aix wrote one of the most important period histories of the Crusades called Historia expeditionis Hierosolymitanae (“History of the Expedition to Jerusalem”).

The massacre at Jerusalem is similarly well documented.

For the fourth Crusade, again this is hardly contraversial, you could probably get everything you need to know from the Venetian board of tourism, all the loot they stole from the great Churches of Constantinople are proudly on display there. One good source is The Fourth Crusade and the Sack of Constantinople by Jonathan Philips.

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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:52 pm

John,

Though we have not always agreed on everything, I have immense respect for your scholarship and I know you have done a great deal of research. I'm very surprised that you take this stance, but I guess one persons revisionist is another persons conservative historian. I'll read through it again and see if I missed something, but ultimately we may have to agree to disagree.

All I can say is I honestly don't see the Crusades as anything other than a sordid disaster. It's only my opinion and I may be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time by any means.

Jr

Edited: fixed a typo
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby John_Clements » Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:01 pm

So, would you have preferred they all had just stayed home and waited? Do you feel they were "unjustified" in their response given who they were and when they lived? Or is it just the tragedy of war in this particular case that you somehow find more objectionable than those of any other?

See the above link additions to my prior post if you missed them.

It's high time we had balanced and fair treatment of this history. In my opinion, people's emotional investments here only underscore how much they have been misled and misinformed about it.

And guys, do leave the modern political references out of this or your posts will be deleted.

JC
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