Important new article on the Crusades

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John_Clements
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby John_Clements » Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:09 am

Thank you, Tim,
It's always the soldiers who put things in perspetive for us.

If we object to senseless slaughter in war and reject horrific brutality in its practice, we cannot single out conduct in one historical case over another as particularly more (or less) heinous because its causes and motivations were religious in nature. Condemnations for atrocities throughout history should not now be selectively applied through a prism of modern political views.

Commenting on the recent scholarship of Oxford historian of the crusades, Dr. Christopher Tyerman in his recent, Fighting for Christendom: Holy War and the Crusades (Oxford, 2005), Professor Steven Ozment of Harvard writes how Tyerman similarly states: “that the four centuries of holy war known as the Crusades are both the best recognized and most distorted part of the Christian Middle Ages. Just liek Prof. Madden he faults scholars, pundits, and laymen on both sides of the East-West divide for allowing the memory of the Crusades to be ‘woven into intractable modern political problems,’ where it ‘blurs fantasy and scholarship’ and exacerbates present-day hatreds.”

Professor Ozment further notes how Dr. Tyerman views the Crusades (just as does Prof. Madden) “as neither an attempt at Western hegemony, nor a betrayal of Western Christian teaching and practice.”

As Dr. Tyerman himself explains, the warriors who answered the pope’s call to aid Christendom in the Holy Land were known as crucesignati, “those signed with the cross.” Tyerman considers the Crusades to have largely been “warfare decked out in moral and religious terms” and describes them as “the ultimate manifestation of conviction politics.” He points out the Crusades were indeed “butchery” with massacres of Jews Muslims and Jews, and that even among their contemporaries, crusaders had mixed reputations as “chivalric heroes and gilded thugs.”

Yet, as Professor Ozment observes, Tyerman also adds that rather than some “simple realpolitik and self-aggrandizement, the guiding ideology of crusading was that of religious self-sacrifice and revival, and directly modeled on the Sacrament of Penance.”

See: www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0RMQ/is_40_10/ai_n14791827.

Finally, any among us here who believe there was a moral equivalence between the crusaders and their opponents who professed that all of them were “al-Dhimma” (i.e. the Muslims’ natural slaves) to be forcibly converted or else killed (and let's not even mention their practice of forced circumcision of young girls), then I think you are living in the wrong culture.
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Justin Blackford
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby Justin Blackford » Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:08 pm

Mr. Chandler, I must honestly say that after all I have read on this thread, I am more inclined to agree with you than most everybody else. Although I feel everybody makes their own case and puts it very well, I knew that as soon as I saw this article open up, it would open up a big can of worms.
I know that everybody is going to have their own opinion and that everybody who has studied history sees it from their own perspective based on their own socio-political and theological/philosophical idealogies, as even I am not innocent of this. It is human nature. Personally, I thought that ARMA was going to stick with the historical martial arts stuff and not start going more in depth into controversial historical politics, but since that is the topic for today, I'll follow up on it.
Certainly, everybody who sees everything from a "good guy/bad guy" viewpoint is going to try to justify their own actions as "good" and their adversary's as "bad". When one looks at history from a neutral standpoint, it is pretty obvious that good and bad are actually done from both sides when human beings are in conflict and that no one side is completely as innocent or guilty as they would have you believe. Throughout history, all governments will use propaganda to justify their own actions and political allegiances when conflicts arise and make everything seem either black or white from a moral standpoint, and I'm sure that this was no different during the crusades with the Feudal European goverments as well as the Church and the Caliphates and Sultanates in the Orient.
Forgive me if this sounds "preachy" from a philosophical view, but this is just what I have noticed during my short time in this world observing my own species and its history.
The real bitch of all this is, none of us were there during the crusades and the medieval era, so no one can truly be 100% sure of "what REALLY happened".
In summary, I agree with what was said earlier: "The ends don't justify the means, the ends are the means."
Well, just one man's opinion. I know that you'll have yours too <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />.

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A man believes what he wants to believe. - Cuchulainn

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William Savage
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby William Savage » Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:30 pm

Mr. Blackford, i dont think anyone here beleives in collective guilt, thats why we keep bringing up collateral damage.
When one looks at history from a neutral standpoint, it is pretty obvious that good and bad are actually done from both sides when human beings are in conflict and that no one side is completely as innocent or guilty as they would have you believe. Throughout history, all governments will use propaganda to justify their own actions and political allegiances when conflicts arise and make everything seem either black or white from a moral standpoint


The nazzis were BAD.

When the perssians tried to erraticate the greek race, it was BAD

When arabs invade Spain and start converting by force, they'r being BAD.

And someone also mentioned that that its easy to see islam expansionism if you look at all of them as a whole. Of course they saw them as a whole, almost everyone was devout back then, They saw themselves as a whole too. Thats how Christendom was able to raise an army against Islam.

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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby Andrzej Rosa » Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:43 pm

I'm still thinking about what actually worked with this Crusades?

What they managed to accomplish?

From whatever I read it seems that Crusaders were good at attacking wrong
guys, murdering Jews and civilians, being manipulated, impoverished and
killed.

I hope that they actually did something right.

Otherwise I'll have to side with JeanryChandler by thinking that Crusades
were mostly disaster. No matter who was morally right or wrong, they would
be still a disaster.

But I did not reached yet a point I can say I have an opinion. Just see
myself sliding one way.

Good discussion.

Best regards.

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Casper Bradak
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby Casper Bradak » Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:40 pm

You'll probably have to read more than this forum thread for that. If you're looking for their accomplishments, then all the exceptions being brought up are beside the point. In fact, in regards to what started this thread, the accomplishments of the crusades are also besides the point. This was about the why.
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Filip Pobran
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby Filip Pobran » Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:41 pm

islam wasn't spread by force. lands spreaded by force. it is very important to know

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s_taillebois
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby s_taillebois » Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:26 pm

Somewhat late entry into this heated discussion...
Concerning the Crusaders inability to understand Byzantine political policy, perhaps that's a bit of a wash. Guiscard knew exactly what his intent was when he took Basra, and his son (Bohemond) followed the same pattern. Byzantine political/military policy was hinged on strongpoints from which they would foray. So when Bohemond took his city, and remained without turning it back to the emperor....he knew it would weaken Byzantine power, and enhance his own. No doubt a little accomodation for someone who swore to return the 'liberated' cities. And the Crusaders knew these strongpoints were essential to keeping their hold on Outremer. Later on, that's why places like Acre and Crak Des Cheveliers were so important. One thing the crusaders became very proficient at was the building and design of these fortifications.
The mess of sacking Constantanople, some of that relates to politics between the Venetian's and the Genoese. They had actually had several sea fights between them to push the other out of the very lucrative Crusader/Byzantine trade. So when the Doge redirected the 4th crusade, it was as much policy agaisnt the Genoese as the Byzantines.
About the cannibalism, well that was a much a product of their social structure as anything else...in the crusades, they did have mobs of hangers on following the crusade armies. And the standard practice at the time, was to expell the lower orders from the defenses. So expelled by their own army, and caught between the Moslim's, the lower orders had few choices. Actually, Peter the Hermit could be considered one of the few 'evil' people of the era. His fanaticism, and unwillingness to admit his limitations, got a stunning amount of the poor and pious killed.
Another factor, was the millenial effect on the Europeans. After the year 1000 had passed and gone, they truly believed that they had been reprieved by God-and so whether it was the massive building programs of the great cathedrals, or the First Crusades...they genuinely felt that these things had to be done. They owed God.
Later on the delusions about Prester John played a role, and it was flat out bizarre how many rulers they thought he was supposed to be...
And as far as Islam, have to take some care in grouping them all as a monolithic block. Big difference in attitudes from, for example, the Persian's to the Arabs.
And lastly, one of the reasons Outremer finally fell, was due to a low birthrate. The church policy at the time as that crusaders could not marry Moslims-even those who had apostated. (not that many would have wanted to anyway) But for a group of people, thousands of miles out, to enact a tradition which prevented them from marrying within the local population...ensured a low birthrate. So weirdly enough, sex also played a role in Outremer's decline.
(Incidentally its prior to the period we're discussing, but the Moslims were asked into Spain, as a result of a political squabble between the Christians...Oops)
Steven Taillebois

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Randall Pleasant
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby Randall Pleasant » Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:14 am

Filip Pobran wrote:
Islam wasn't spread by force.
What? Then what were they doing with their swords? Your statement completely overlooks all historical data. The one underlaying truth in all of this is that Islam was speard by force.
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TimSheetz
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby TimSheetz » Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:43 am

Yeah, you are right Filip...

It isn't force to move it a land, establish sharia law, tax heavily all non-muslims and generally abuse non-muslims til they feel they have no option...

One of their great ealry leaders did go out and say that he didn't want to convert everybody... if they conveted then they couldn't tax them unfairly.

Well, in addition to seizing their lands, I call this "by force".

Is it possible that your distinction of what is "force" is flavored by attitudes in the Balkans? Don't want to stray off-topic here, just looking for a "yes/no."

Peace,

Tim
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John_Clements
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby John_Clements » Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:11 am

From what I have noticed of reaction to this piece is not that it presents long known information that has been already been addressed, refuted, or successfully rebutted, but that it presents new information that strongly conflicts with long held assumptions about crusade history ---history that, as both books authors here note, is a product of post-colonialist post-imperialist politically-correct views ---i.e., the evil West as brutal aggressors against peace-loving muslims, etc. Some people have a real problem with new contrary information that upsets the views they have for so long been inundated with that they are virtually brainwashed. It’s very hard I think for some people to simply say, “Oh, interesting. I didn’t know that, it contradicts what I previously understood.” Let's not kid ourselves either, some modern scholars have also staked their reputations on a need to believe the worst about Western civilization.

Heck, it reminds me of some Asian martial arts teachers who can still be found saying, “There were no Renaissance martial arts” but when confronted with the evidence respond, “Umm… Uh…okay…well uh…still, they weren’t ‘True’ martial arts at least, because they lacked a necessary ‘spiritual component.’” They are wrong on both accounts but have so much emotional investment tied up in their ignorance they refuse to be educated.

Before anyone starts venting excitable remarks beucase their assumpstions have been challenegd, here's a thought...TRY READING THE TWO BOOKS FIRST.

JC
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G.MatthewWebb
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby G.MatthewWebb » Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:59 am

S Taillebois wrote "(Incidentally its prior to the period we're discussing, but the Moslims were asked into Spain, as a result of a political squabble between the Christians...Oops)"

Sad but true point! But I don't think the Visigothic rulers expected the Moslems to have the bad manners and conquer Spain and then invade France. I don't think the French asked to be helped. I have read that Muslem raiders attacked Rome in the 9th century or thereabouts, and I believe they sacked St. Peter's or another church. The drive to bring all the world forcibly into the House of Islam is a driving principle of Islam and supported by the example of Muhammad, his early followers, all major branches of Islamic law, and countless examples throughout history extending into the present age. The desire to reclaim formerly Moslem-controlled areas in Europe and elsewhere are frequently cited in the propaganda pieces released by Muslem Jihadist groups. This Jihadist Imperative throughout Islamic history is a key reason why Prof. Madden views and why many Crusaders viewed the Crusades as defensive.

The Visigoths' asking for temporary assistance from a foreign power to solve dynastic disputes reminds me of the Irish leader who asked in the Normans from Britain for temporary help in his power struggle and then found that the Normans had no intention of leaving. It is a common mistake that rulers or would-be rulers have made throughout history.

Matthew

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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:34 pm

Folks,

While this is a very interesting discussion and I am learning much by reading it, I am wondering if it isn't wandering a bit far afield from our purpose here?

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s_taillebois
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby s_taillebois » Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:42 pm

To a degree, yes it's wandering.
However, the crusading attitudes lingered well into the modern era. So the norms of the period we study (and the motivations for their use of weapons) were still very influenced very strongly by the crusades.
One could argue that the major mental effects of the crusades, lingered until the end of the reformation wars-and some linger yet. By the time reformation wars which had wasted Europe were over, religion had lost much of its hold on Europe.
Conceptually, there was a world of difference between some Conquistador or Chevelier praying towards his cross hilt, and some 18th century dandy intended to skewer somebody over some courtesan.
The various fechtbuch authors, did tend to be of the period still influenced by the lingering aire of the crusades. And so many of their mnemonics dealing with morality and the sword, weren't that far from the crusade era.
Steven Taillebois

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Randall Pleasant
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby Randall Pleasant » Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:49 pm

Jaron Bernstein wrote:
While this is a very interesting discussion and I am learning much by reading it, I am wondering if it isn't wandering a bit far afield from our purpose here?
Not at all. I see the discussion as being about the reasons the martial arts we study were used and the context in which they were used. It is about the spiritality of these arts. If in the practice of these martial arts I am confronted by someone who turns up their nose at me and says, "You look like a crusader", I intend to reply, "Thanks, I hope so."
Ran Pleasant

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Craig Peters
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Re: Important new article on the Crusades

Postby Craig Peters » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:06 am

John,

I can only speak for myself, but I think the people here lack many of the general assumptions about western history, specifically the idea that the Crusades were virtually entirely a "European evil". Myself specifically, as someone who is interested in medieval and Renaissance history, I have never bought into the idea that everything bad from the Crusades is basically all Europe's fault. Even a few days before this article came out on the ARMA webpage, I was having a discussion with a friend about the Crusades where I pointed out that he needed to remember some of the evils that were perpretrated by the Muslims lest he fall into the view of "Crusaders= bad, Muslims= good".

When I read through the article, the overall effect was that it solidified the idea in my head that idea that yeah, Europeans did have a good reason for going on Crusade: the lands of their fellow Christians were imperiled by invaders. My concern with the article was that it was written very strongly from a particular perspective, and I think it under-acknowledges some of the less positive things about the Christian Crusaders in the process. Dr. Madden should be commended for not entirely ignoring some of the unfortunate things that happened as a result of the Crusades. But, the overall tone of the article is such that these evils are mitigated by and large due to the article's emphasis upon the fact that the Crusades were justified and defensive.

The danger I think lies with us getting too comfortable with what went on in the Crusades such that we underplay the either the Christian evils or the Muslim evils (and this latter of the two evils is often underplayed extensively in modern history texts, as has been previously mentioned). If we become too enamoured with one side being "justified", the key word here being "too", we can begin to mitigate some of the evils done by that particular side in our own minds. I've done it before in favour of the Crusaders, and I wouldn't be surprised if others here have too.

You're right that we should read the books. However, since the article was presented as the primary subject of discussion, I think it's fair to discuss how it presents the information.


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