silvers wards

[Dylan palmer]

in george silvers pardoxe of defense he sates there are 4 wards with all single weapons two with the point up and two with the point down. now relating to the short staff i am assuming these wards are simualer to swetnams guard that being the ones with the point down like the hagging in the long sword and the ones with the point up are like the pflug both having a left and right version depending what hand and foot must foremost.


am i correct or am i missing something?

[Bill Welch]

I have not read silver(I have little or no interest in small sword or rapier) but, I would assume his 4 wards are probably a lot like OX, FOOL,(two with point down) and PLOW, ROOF(two with point up).

I would not think that Hanging would be a ward you would want to present yourself in. It is really more of a guard of transition, To move thru as you are winding, turning, or binding.

But like I said I dont really know much about Silver... his fencing style is kind of different. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Allen Johnson]

Silver is neither small sword nor rapier- in fact he bashes both weapons quite thoroughly. It does help to read the text. Silvers sword is a cut and thrust blade, usually a baskethilt or mortuary hilt. Broadsword or Backsword blade.

The section being questioned is this, "All single weapons have four wards, and all double weapons have eight wards. The single sword has two with the point up, and two with the point down. The staff and all manner of weapons to be used with two hands have the like."
Silver does advocate a hanging guard - he calls it the True Guardant. Hold you hilt up above your head so you are looking under your arm- the flat of the sword facing the enemy.

[Jon Pellett]

Dylan:

Short answer is nobody knows. What you say definitely could be right, but I would argue it is slightly wrong.

Unlike Swetnam, who wants you to be able to switch hands (to have the same lead as your opponent), or DiGrassi (who wants you to take the opposite lead), Silver doesn't say you need to switch hands. All he says is "If you play with your staff with your left hand before &amp; your right hand back behind, as many men find themselves most aptest when that hand is before.... The like must you do if you play with your right hand before, &amp; your left hand back behind,
11. If both lie aloft as aforesaid, &amp; play with the left hand before.... The like order must you use, in playing with the right hand before." The way he writes it seems to be your choice which lead you use. In Brief Instructions Cap. 11.8, where he describes the point-up ward, he says it defends either side, without telling you to switch leads.

That said, I know some people who study Silver (Greg Mele?) think the same as you, that it is like Swetnam, switching lead hands. One of the best-known Silver guys, Paul Wagner, thinks that the wards can be point back and point forward (kind of like Swetnam's High and Low, and Vom Dach and Tail, but the last two with the butt of the staff projecting forward). I personally think that they are both wrong, and that the wards are like Swetnam's but you use whichever lead you like; the four wards are high outside, high inside, low outside, low inside. (I have good reason to think that Silver's "wards" are parries or covering positions, rather than guard positions, which I can explain if you actually care. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Sorry for the long-winded explanation; in short, you could easily be right, and if you think that fits the text best, go for it.

Cheers

PS Allen - Well, he didn't really bash the smallsword, since it didn't exist yet. But I'm sure he wouldn't have liked it much. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Allen Johnson]

hehe true- he was none to fond of the slim and pokies.

That being said, he did say the true fight is incomplete without the cut AND the thrust.

[Martin_Wilkinson]

It is my interpretation that George Silver didn't dislike the Rapier, it was the way that people were taught to use it that he disliked.

Martin.

[Casper Bradak]

The smallsword wasn't to be invented for some time when Master Silver wrote his works, but I'm sure he would've despised it as much as the rapier.

He also dislikes compound hilts, complaining about their frequency on rapiers and states several details on the disadvantages of having them, which would of course include basket hilts. Speaking of which, when did real "basket hilts" come about?

He did dislike the rapier fighting style, but very much the weapon itself as well. He goes into detail on that point.

I think a lot of people assume the smallsword was around at his time, because there are so many practitioners that use the smallsword as their foundation when studying his works at the moment, and they come up with some interesting interpretations from that, to say the least. Not to mention that one of the earliest modern publications of his work (an absolutely terrible one) mentions that he even used one in the introduction!

[Dylan palmer]

not to be rude but. could we keep this post on topic its supposed to be about interpration of slvers wards not his prefeerance or dislike for any peticular weapon


now that im done my litle rant thank you all for your time and replies

: Dylan

[Allen Johnson]

"When did the baskethilt come about"
Most people attribute the earliest baskethilt to the "Mary Rose Sword" http://www.maryrose.org/ship/hand2.htm
The ship it was on sunk in 1545. So it certainly was in production at least a little before that.

Dylan, no disrespect at all but defining what sword is being used is of vital importance to the interpretation of guards. ( I do agree that Silvers reasons for not liking something are a little on the fringe of the discussion- but still is somewhat related.) The big question is not if he liked them or not, but WHY did he not like them? Because the rapier did not fit into what he considered to be a complete fight. One that used the cut and the thrust. A hanging guard with a rapier is really less effective. What does the basket offer in terms of the guards and wards? I think that it allows far more protection to the hand (obviously) and allows for some more aggressive and quick counters with much of the weight of the sword being right in hand. The hanging wards ( true guardant ) is a very versitile guard that can quickly defend a large area and can also quickly counter attack.

[John_Clements]

Silver bashes the small-sword???
The weapon didn't exist unil at least 70 years or so after him.

JC

[Allen Johnson]

yeah, that was my bad- brain cramp. Appologies.

[philippewillaume]

i am not a silver fan (not old enough and not german enough)
but i would like to know why you think sivers are parries instaed of ward?
(i think that makse sense)

my abe you can pm me (or start a thread) so that we do not Highjack this thread


phil

[Stacy Clifford]

Referring specifically to staff, Silver never describes those wards in any detail, but Swetnam does describe four wards for staff, even though he says you should only use two of them. Swetnam's low guard is essentially pflug and his high guard is a hengen, which I'm certain Silver probably also included. The other two guards Swetnam describes aren't given names, but they are basically alber (too easy to get thrust in the face) and ochs (OK, but requires more strength to use nimbly from here), guards used by pikemen in formation but that he considers not so good for single staff combat. It's only a guess that these would be Silver's other two staff wards. I think both men would agree that standing in vom tag with a staff is the fastest way to get your teeth rearranged. Meyer has a version of vom tag for staff which might be an alternative here, but I have not seen that described in the English texts for staff anywhere. Silver is making a generalization about guards for different weapons there, but I don't think that necessarily means that he thinks the guards for staff weapons should be exactly the same as guards for swords. "Two with the point up and two with the point down" can be interpreted a number of different ways, but I really think Swetnam is going to be very close to Silver on this.

[Dylan palmer]

im sorry i suold have been more specific i am using silver primaraly as a staff manual and not for either sword or rapier

[Jon Pellett]

Philippe:

Well this is on topic anyway.

The wards aren't just parries - some of them are used as guards as well; but not all Silver's guards are wards. The wards are the positions that cover you without changing. Silver calls guards in general "fights" or "lyings". According to this hypothesis Silver would call Lichty's four guards "fights", but only Ochs and Pflug would be "wards" (mind you I probably have the German stuff completely wrong). All IMHO of course. We discussed it in this SFI thread.

Cheers