Rose/flower - Meyer question

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi folks,

I am trying to puzzle out Meyer's technique/concept which he calls the flower/rose in the longsword chapter. Can anyone clarify this one?

Thanks <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Mike Cartier]

not really sure, I assume it to mean a kind of imagined picture we overly over the opponents targeted areas. That is the upper body, in Meyer even the low shots are really unterhaus done at the elbows etc. In Dusack there is a strike called Rosenhau (rose strike) it is a quick 3 cut combo very similar in appearance to what in FMA is called the Florietti (flower). I think its a convenient way of drawing in the target angles and emphasizing the efficient changes in your cutting. By that i mean the tight turns and such that make multiple strike workable in sparring.

So imagine a flow with 4 petals, each petal meeting in the center and rep[resenting the 4 areas we strike at.

[Jaron Bernstein]

So it is just cutting at the 4 blossen in succession? I have read it in the longsword text (haven't got to the Dusack yet) where it says to use the rose/flower, but never actually describes how to do it.

[John_Clements]

Alternatively...
Let us suppose we might be misinterpreting it and, for sake of dicussion, imagine it's even more metaphorical, and refers possibly to the bruises "red roses" or "flowers that bloom" when someone is hit (perhaps even in a manner that doesn't cut), ala' the "rose garden" nick name for the areas that tournaments were held in, or the "rising flowers" caused by knightly blows...One colleague even suggested we might reconsider Fiore's title.


JC

[Mike Cartier]

Yes thats certainly a very plausible explanation John, the only reasons i have for my Rose theory is the Roosenhau strike from Dusack, and When the rose term is used it is usually somethin like, "cut through the rose" or something like that.

I suspect the meaning is multilayered , with more involved we do not understand and the term having several connotations.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Mike, John,

Here are some examples of how it is used in the text:

"Bind against his incoming cut, and as soon as the blades connect, push your pommel through under your right arm, stepping at the same time well out toward his left side; and go up with crossed hands, and cut with thelong edge through the Rose sideways from below behind his arm at his head"
(pg. 41r, paragraph 4)

or

Mittelhut

Concerning this Middle Guard you shall be instructed later in the section on the Dusack; as you do it there with one hand, so shall you do it there with both hands. I did not initially intend to present it here, but I have not been able to avoid it, since the Rose can be more fitly taught from no other guard"

40r paragraph 5

While I can cipher out some of the techniques from this, I am still unclear as to what the "Rose" he refers to is.

[Mike Cartier]

Makes me think of a handwork or concept rather than a specific technique. I think it refers in part to the to theh and work of change cutting which requires tight turns with multiple strikes all turning tightly to the next strike. This is in fact that same way its used in the Dusack section (rosenhau strike).

For example if i strike a right to left scheitelhau and flow into a left to right zornhau followed by a right to left mittelhau. This would be the rose in any cutting combination you could think of.

meyer has sevewral methods of cutting, arrested or centerline cutting (stopping in center of target), cutting in opposition (reversing cut lines) and change cutting (not breaking the energy of the cut but flowing onto another cut in a smnooth fashion. I beleive the change cut is what you must do when cutting through the rose.

[Jaron Bernstein]

That makes sense. Thanks! <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Jaron Bernstein]

Mike,

If I understand correctly, you are just calling it the segno by another name?

[Mike Cartier]

sorta, but not in any particular order , if you take all 4 strikes with a change handwork (a circlular trajectory change) or cut in opposition , when done with all 4 cuts you would draw what looks alot like 4 petals on a flower. This is the only way i can be able to "cut thru the rose"

There is another opinion of the Rose on the Meyer elist FYI, you may also find it interesting.

[GaryGrzybek]

The Rose analogy also makes me think of this image. Picture the bud as a starting point and all possible techniques or attacks blossom from it. This is of course more generic but since we have so many possabilities it could fit.

[Mike Cartier]

yes I agree Gary, in this manner you can cut through the rose as instructed.