Rapier vs. Longsword

[Justin Blackford]

I've been sparring with Rapier against Longsword for quite some time and I've been developing some techniques for countering the longsword just as my companion in arms(who rails against the inefficiency of the rapier like he's freakin' George Silver, who he's actually never even read or heard of, ironically) has been developing longsword techniques to counter the rapier.
What I'm wondering is if the techniques we've been practicing have already been clearly defined and explained in detail in any historical manual or if anybody else out there has sparred frequently in this weapon combination, what techniques do they use and prefer, whether for longsword or rapier.

Thank you.

Justin

[JeffreyHendricks]

sounds fun....do you acctually parry with your rapier? Who usually wins?

Jeffrey Jr.

[Allen Johnson]

I've done a bit of this- albeit with people who know Silver. But I've also recently done this with rapier vs. katana (shanai) with some kendo guys. In order to win in any unmatched weapon duel- I feel there is a big advantage to anyone who understands his opponents weapon the most.
What works? As the rapier user, you must respect the range and cutting speed of the longsword. You must rely on alot of voiding and traversing steps. You can parry, but it must be a very strong one at the forte of the blade. If you want a really strong advantage, use an off hand dagger or buckler. With that, you can displace and counter in single time. Falsing steps are really handy here too.

[John_Clements]

Yes, I do this quite a bit.

It can be done, provided you know both weapons well enough.

Thibault included some of the rapier vs. the great sword in his treatise.

You need to exploit the speed/timing issue and the openings created by its attacks, while avoiding direct parries of strong cuts.

[Stacy Clifford]

I find it harder to fight a rapier with a cutting sword than the other way around. (Of course, that could be because most of my experience with this is against John.) While in a longsword fight some masters advise you to ignore the other guy's weapon and just concentrate on hitting him, I don't find that to work very well against the rapier because that point is always on target, and that nasty little needle will make you pay for ignoring it. You have to clear that point first, with your dagger, buckler, open hand, even half-sword (if it works against a spear...) or a well-placed deflection with a step offline. Don't try to beat the weak of the rapier, it's too nimble and will just disengage. If you attack the strong or the hands you have a better chance of creating an opening. A few other tactics will work too, but I can't give away all my secrets. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Mike_McGurk]

Fighting against a shinai will give you a distorted impression of the actual speed (faster than normal) and pressure (too light) you will be facing, as they can weigh as little as 510 grams (just over a pound). Bokken (basically a waster) are a better substitute for the katana.

[Justin Blackford]

Yes, in my experience, I have found that parrying the stronger cuts from the longsword is highly unneccesary, since the weak of his sword is stronger than the strong of my narrow rapier blade when he comes in full force. It seems much more practical to simply void his strikes and thrusts and then wait for him to recover before taking the tempo and counterattacking.
With my longsword wielding opponent, He usually holds himself in the guard of Pflug on his left side and in doing so can quickly absetzen a thrust by setting the point slightly offline in order to immediately follow up with an oberhau or draw-slice to the forearms or a thrust to the face.
But, I have found that from this position, that his hands are highly vulnerable to a low-angled thrust coming up from below. So, I have lately been holding my rapier in the guard most recommended by Joseph Swetnam, by keeping my hand in Third and holding the sword close to my right thigh with the point facing upwards at an angle, and if I carry my dagger as well, by keeping its point close to the rapier point.
This tactic seems to work by attacking the exposed hands, but what I am wondering is, how many punctures to the hands and/or fingers could a tough, resilient swordsman take in the heat of a real duel until he could no longer properly hold his weapon. My opponent's argument is much like Silver's in that he may take several shallow punctures and still rough it out to finish off his opponent. How true would this be in a real fight with the real weapons?

Justin

[Shane Smith]

I've had good success against rapier with my longsword. I try to control the distance and strike when the rapier is somewhere it shouldn't be. I keep the distance through footwork and a thrust or two of my own to keep everyone honest and then when a hand wanders into range, I move and strike.

[Allen Johnson]

"Fighting against a shinai will give you a distorted impression of the actual speed "

Any time we are using anything but actual period accurate sharps (which should never be done aginst an opponent) you are getting a distorted impression. That's why we advocate a variety of training tools to help fill in those gaps that would be left with only one tool.
According to those who have worked with antique rapiers, there is virtually no reproduction rapier on the market that comes close to the originals. We can only go so far that way.

[Mike_McGurk]

I fully understand that to be true, however I was under the impression that the tools referred to were not made of metal (live steel or blunt) and my point was that shinai, being round, made from bamboo and using a string to represent the back of the blade, are not as accurate a represention of a sword as a waster or a bokken. Perhaps I should have clarified it by saying 'a more distorted impression'.

[Logan Weed]

I have some experience in this unarmored cut vs thrust dueling with simulators as well. I prefer the rapier's style of combat as I feel it's better suited to this type of duel, I've also had much greater success in sparring employing rapier technique and stance/movement.

With much amusemt I'll also have to add that one handed thrusting is king in plastic lightsaber duels!

[Kevin-Irizarry]

Nice try Justin.

A. I'm not George freakin' Silver

B. I know your tactics now (muahahahaha)

and

C. Simply by getting inside of your point, you're done. In the time it takes for a rapier to either withdraw or reposition, the longsword weilder can raise his (or her) cross guard up, binding the rapier, and deliver any assortment of hurtful stabs, cuts, or punches.

[Stacy Clifford]

Getting inside the point is definitely vital, but don't forget two things to watch out for. One, the rapier man probably has a dagger in the other hand for inside work. Two, you can also half-sword with a rapier. For that matter, I believe one of our articles states that a large number of fights that started out with rapiers ended up on the ground wrestling, so that skill wasn't forgotten by prudent rapier fighters either.

[Bill Tsafa]

I have been debating this issue in my mind for a while now. The first martial art I learned was longsword, and this year I have been fighting rapier in the style of "Case" (rapier in each hand). I don't know if you use an off hand weapon with rapier, but try putting another rapier in you off hand. It was common for people to use the rapier with a parry dagger. The best of the best fought "case". You will have to practice some to learn to use the two independantly. Don't just use the second rapier to parry. These are both offensive weapons, use them as such. Keep them at different angles and lengths so he can't sweep them both. You will want to deflect his blows rather then try to parry anyway so a second rapier will serve you better then a dagger.

It is my theory that you should be able to win consitantly fighting caase against longsword. Of course you opponent can counter and say while you are correct in using a second weapon, he would be correct in using armor since that was commonly used with the longsword. This would mean that you are only allowed to target certain unarmed areas. It is not likley that a mailed knight would wear a great-helm in a civilian setting, which is the only place you would find someone with a rapier. So it might be more fair for you to use the two rapiers but only hits to his face count. I'm just putting some ideas out there for you to try and tell us the results.

I have not found the right person or cirecumstances to fight rapier vs. longsword. There are some safety issues I must work out. Is my opponent using wooden waster or steel blunt? How hard can he hit? It seems unfair that I will be able to fight fullspeed but he most be cautious not to hurt me with a much heavier weapon. What kind of armor do I need to protect myself so he can go at fullspeed? This kind of reverses the way things would have worked historiclly. Historicly rapier should not have much armor and longsword would be more heaviliy armored. I really don't want to get my head choped in two for the sake of this experiment so I will have to armor up. Naturly any armor and padding will slow me down, since the rapier was normaly used with little or no armor. The long sword fighter does not need really need armor, but perhaps he should armor up to make things more accurate and slow him down.

Justin, how have you resloved imbalances created from safety concerns?

Just some things to think about.

[GaryGrzybek]

Hi Bill,

You mention a longsword fighter should be armored up to be accurate but I must argue that many swordsmen went into battle wearing little or no armor. So in reality you could place these two combatants in an unarmored situation while retaining historical accuracy.

Something to think about