Kicks in Sword Fighting

[Guest]

Hey Gene,

Coming from an Intructor of TKD. Whats your insight on the kicks used in Talhoffer? To drive someone that comes into close range, close enough to bind what would you use?

A front snap kick? A thrust kick? JC demo in the video section shows a nice kick to the groin in Rapier fighting.

I would use a good thrust kick to the lower rib cage/stomach area <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thoughts?

Todd
CNY ARMA Director

[Gene Tausk]

Hey Todd!

This answer will have multiple parts and this is only the 1st part so bear with me. This is a large subject.

1st thing that comes to mind is plate 12. Talhoffer's warriors have closed with each other and the swordsman on the right is kicking the swordsman on the left in the belly. (Rector translation, Greenhill books 2000).

Now what is interesting (to me, anyway) about this illustration is that the warrior doing the kicking (active warrior) is clearly using the flat of his foot to kick the opponent (passive warrior).

There are different types of "front kicks" and this certainly seems to be an example of a front kick. Note the hips of the active warrior which are facing forward. This is the classic position for a front kick, as opposed to a side kick or roundhouse where the hips are normally facing to the side.

There is a type of front kick used by several Japanese systems and an Okinawan Karate style (Isshinryu) as well as Korean systems. With this type of kick, the active person lifts his knee up to chest level so that the portion of the leg beneath the knee is parallel to the floor. At this point, the entire leg "pushes" forward (more of an explosive act) and the flat of the foot impacts against the target.

This type of kick has at least two advantages over a "rising" kick which is normally used for groin attacks: (1) the kick impacts horizontally on the target which allows for more of a directional thrust backward and (2) more of the person's bodyweight is behind the kick. Indeed, this is the type of kick used by law enforcement personell when breaking down a door.

From my perspective, Talhoffer's active warrior is using this type of front kick against his opponent. With both swords being held at chest level or above, this is an ideal technique for not only "pushing" the opponent away (although at full power the target will have the breath knocked out of him and will probobly end up on the floor) to gain distance but also to inflict damage upon him, which is of course the primary purpose of a striking technique. In practice sessions, at half speed, the target is clearly knocked back.

There are, of course, probobly other interpretations of this manuever which I would be interested in comparing.

More to follow.


-------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene

[Guest]

Gene,

I completely agree. What I was taught, in Tae Kwon Do, was for thrust kick, is what we called it, was to allow the opponent to press into you while your foot was placed flat on the stomach or chest and then using your weight, push your body forward will pushing your leg out, "thrusting" your opponent away. Unlike the front snap kick used for fast striking. In my video on my website I use a front snap kick and under my video it says "Talhoffer's Kicks". Therefore I am wrong and used the wrong kick in the video.

I do not think you would want to utilize a front snap kick against armor. Possiblitity of fracturing your foot or ankle. A thrust kick would be much more safer and effective such as Talhoffer. Thoughts?

Todd Sullivan
CNY ARMA SG Director
www.armanortheast.com

[Casper Bradak]

My interpretation of that particular plate in Talhoffers book- A thrusting front kick to the hips not only pushes someone back, but bends them over at the waist when done with force. It puts the opponent in an ideal position for the kicker to cut at the head/neck.
I guess a snap kick to the groin would bend them over as well, but from pain, not pure mechanics. And it wouldn't push them back.
That technique can be practiced with intent to see the real effect, and my study group does it often. You can'd deliver the impact without protection, but you can place the foot and thrust to see the fulcrum effect on the opponent.

[Jay Vail]

The Talhoffer illustration is ambiguous and one cannot make any firm judgment about whether Talhoffer meant to show a thrust kick intended to push the opponent away, or a snap kick made with the bottom of the foot rather than the ball. It could be a pushing kick or one intended to have percussive effect. I have seen Indonesian fighters use the same style of kick, front with the striking surface at the bottom of the foot target on the stomach, as a percussive kick in exactly the same manner in weapons fighting as illustrated by Talhoffer.

From what I have seen, what we now call the front snap kick, with the impact point the ball of the foot, may be a 20th century invention. I have searched many old pictures of karate practitioners from the late 1800 to 1920s for how the front kick was done and I cannot recall seeing a single one doing the front kick as we know it today. The front kick seems to have been done either with the top of the foot to the groin, sometimes even with the point of the toes; and with the bottom to every other target (as in the police kicking down a door). In fact, the front kick with the bottom of the foot can be found in widely separated martial arts, from Japan, China, Indonesia; and I once saw a photo of a classic Greek statute of a pankrationist who clearly was making a front kick to the legs with the bottom of the foot as the striking surface.

It is not surprising that we see few if any front kicks with the ball of the foot in many styles and in particular the old illustrations. Such kicks are in fact very dangerous to the kicker. There is a substantial chance of injury to the foot with such a kick, especially when kicking to the body, which is one reason you do not see the front snap often used in karate kumite. Indeed, even kicking with the ball of the foot to the legs can also present dangers. This is especially so if one is barefoot or wearing light shoes. If you examine the footwear common until the last century or two, most shoes are lightly made compared to those we wear today. The samurai wore sandals woven from reeds, the Chinese wore light cloth shoes, and European medieval footwear was often hardly more sturdy than moccasins. See The Medieval Soldier by Embleton and Howe. This footwear provides little protection for the toes and feet when striking hard surfaces like knees and shins (and elbows and hips when one misses the target), making kicking a dangerous enterprise unless the striking surface is the bottom of the foot.

This is probably the reason why one does not see the roundhouse and other kicks in many battlefield oriented systems such as kampfringen and koryu jujutsu. (De Liberi apparently illustrates a sidekick to the knee or back of the knee; that is how Keith Ducklin interprets it anyway, and I tend to agree).

In summary, the Talhoffer illustration could be either a thrust or snap kick with the bottom of the foot. Without some explanation in the text, we can interpret it either way. I would interpret it as a percussive kick rather than a push off. Why waste the chance to deliver a good blow that could stun or injure in preference to a push that merely gives you -- and him -- space and prolongs the fight?

Yours in swordplay,

[Guest]

I too am an instructor in TKD, and I think it would be easy for me to interpret the "front kick" in Fiore( and Talhoffer) as a snap kick. However, in Talhoffer, the text read to "stomp the belly", with would mean to me that your are trying to step through though stomach or groin, and as your foot lands you follow through with your main weapon, your sword.

Someone mention Fiore's kick to the knee after grabbing onto your opponent's blade. In the Getty version, you can clearly see that the Master's base foot is pivoted at a 90 degree angle in order to open up his hips. The kick is done in a round-house style fashion, except it looks like he is using the edge of his foot.

I think the kick is performed this way because the kick is meant to hurt your opponent and at the same time disrupt their balance. At the same time, if you did a full powered round-house kick, you might end up turned too far, and thus not in a position to use your sword, which in a sword fight is not a good idea <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" />

Sorry for the long post. Good discussion! <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Gene Tausk]

Keith:

I agree with your interpretation that the person kicking is trying o "stomp through" the persons's stomach to open up for a sword attack. At full speed, however, and if the person performing the kick is able to do it correctly (meaning that he hits the target "squarely" which is hard to do when the opponent is moving, etc.), then the kick alone should cause the receiver to collapse (assuming the receiver is not wearing armor, of course).

Even if he is wearing armor, the push motion of the kick will drive him back, once again opening the way for a sword attack or other follow-up.

------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
unarmed forum moderator

[Gene Tausk]

Jay:

I agree completely that kicks with the ball of the foot appear to be of recent origin (with the exception below), although I would argue that kicks to the groin are as old as time. I have always used the instep of my foot (or the knee) for groin kicks, however.

I would argue that front kicks to the shin, etc. using footwear as the striking surface are effective and have been around for ages. Look at the armor of many of the Roman gladiators - they wore shin protectors known as ocrea. I believe that this was designed, in part, to protect against kicks. Such ocrea can also be found in Greek armor predating the Romans.

Using high front snap kicks to the face, which is unfortunately taught all-too often in karate dojos and taekwondo dojang for kata or hyung purposes I would argue is a recent invention.


--------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
unarmed forum moderator

[Casper Bradak]

I agree that the kicks in manuals can never be interpreted with 100% certainty, and I also think that's a good thing. There are probably a dozen kicks for each illustration that could fit in various situations.
Also, there's no reason that a thrusting kick can't have a percussive impact. It's what you do after the impact that defines the kick as snapping or thrusting.
I also agree that snap kicks can't fit into as many situations as stomping/thrusting etc. kicks. You also have to be more accurate with kicks using the ball of the foot. Kicking with the edge or heel/base of foot gives more margin for error in combat. And, when kicking an armoured opponent, not only protacts your foot better, but will help keep it from slipping off.
I don't think we'll ever really know enough to say whether some kicks were or weren't used, but I do see some being more applicable/easier to learn from a book than others.

[Jay Vail]

It is an interesting speculation that the shin armor of gladiators was intended to defend against low kicks. I guess we will never know about that, although they would certainly do the trick, as well as defend against blows from weapons.

As for whether the ball of the foot snap kick is of recent origin, I admit I am speculating about that. Far more research than my modest efforts would be necessary before we take a definitive position on the question.

And I do not mean to say that front kicks themselves are of recent vintage. It is possible to make a snap kick using the bottom of the foot as the striking surface as well as the top/instep, as you rightly note. The bottom of the foot front kick can be a nasty kick, especially to the knee or shin. I got thinking about these things when I saw a sculpture of a pankrationist from the classical period -- BC -- in a posture that couldn’t have been anything but a low front kick to the legs with the bottom of the foot. It looked a lot like this move I learned in wing chun. Also, I broke both big toes using front kicks in kumite -- hit people’s elbows and forearms.

At any rate, John C. did a good article on the use of kicking in swordplay. It think it’s still available on the website. If you haven’t seen it, you and anyone else reading this thread should check it out.

[Jay Vail]

Caspar, I agree with you. You also make an interesting point about the need for accuracy on the front snap using the ball. Petter, the Dutchman, in his 17th century manual illustrates using what has to be a front snap kick to disarm a knife wielding opponent. Ordinarily, I’d say this is a crazy move, but I did it myself in randori once quite by accident. I was playing with a guy doing gun disarms and without thinking about it snapped a front kick at his hand. To our surprise, the gun leaped out of his hand and sailed over his head. I’ve never tried to do it since, and I don’t know if I ever would if my life was on the line. But there it was, advocated by Petter (sp?).

[Guest]

Yep, that was Nicholaes Petter (1674) who had the snap kick to the knife hand:



I just mentioned this the other day over on Sword Forum so the name and the image from my post were close at hand. According to Christopher Amberger, Petter also included leg sweeps to mow down opponents, similar to those used in many Eastern combat systems.

[Guest]

Gene:
Cool, looks like we agree.
I think it would be very easy for people who come from an Asian striking martial art to see kicks in the manuals and assume that they are performed the same way we were taught in our previous styles. I would say that, for example, the knee kick in Fiore, it would be very dangerous to resort to a standard TKD round-house kick for the reasons I mentioned above.

Of course, thats not to say that if I was in a sword fight for my life, and I saw an opening for say an ap-chagi(front kick) to my opponent's groin, I wouldn't take it <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />

The old masters knew what they were talking about, kicks included.

[Jake_Norwood]

I've been using this kick very frequently lately in dagger/rondell work, and it works great, even against an opponent who's aware you do this sort of thing. You have to hit it right, though, as shown in the manual: making contact on the opponent's wrist, not the hand or the pommel.

[Guest]

Kicks! You have to love kicks. Kicks are a nice wake up call such as "Hey! You're getting to close".

<img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> If you can get the strong of your blade and your opponents weak, raise up thier blade in front of thier face or higher and then apply a good thrust kick to the chest....thats not a bad thing. <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Todd