What's going to happen?

[Nathan Dexter]

After reading the post titled "Future of western martial arts" I became so dismayed that I almost vomited. Also, with all the Inferior sword makers out there, what can we expect, can you imagine GuardUp "dojos" popping up all over the country, and the ARMA being the lone standard of what is really historical and what really happened? I personally think that we SERIOUSLY need to do some thing about this, or else who knows what could happen. ( <img src="/forum/images/icons/mad.gif" alt="" /> )

But anyway, my Question is this:
What can we do to ensure a correct future for what we do?

[Mike_McGurk]

Dude, stop depressing me! Your scenerio isn't all that different from the present, although LARPs and SCA far outnumber Gaukler and Leichmeisters schools.
ARMA would simply continue to train with integrity, in spite of the outside world and isolated from its influence.

[s_taillebois]

Well, it's not all that much to become vexed about, for several reasons. First, although historical study of WMA isn't common, there are likely several thousand who aren't really visable through forums such as this one. They study solo, or via university libraries and etc. So they're out there, but because WMA doesn't yet have the cachet EMA has, they're probably more discrete. Or simply disinclined, or located in areas, that make any group membership unlikely.
Plus the epee/foil people are out there, and although they are peripheral to this form of fencing, still it's an oblique form of WMA.
Up Guard, oh well. Their primary market seems to be kids, and so if they're approach is a bit mixed, not that much of a problem. Better to have a few kids, at least learning some fencing, even if it's very dilute (and no doubt Up Guard has liability reasons as a partial rationale). Plus it could be a door to open the younger types up to more engaged studies.
Better than having them rotting on a couch, or believing "Highlander, or LOTR" is authentic stuff...
Plus the moral component of organizations like "Up Guard" could have a function. At least it makes fence more acceptable to a weapon averse gentry. LARP, SCA, don't really know enough about their goings on to comment.
So, it all will develop as it will. The historical studies people (like ARMA) are, as noted, always likely to be a smaller portion. The others, will go their way.
The junk sword makers, nothing new there, that crowd was around in 1470. And anyway, not everybody can afford hundreds for a training tool, so if a cheaper one instills interest...no reason to get too elite about it all. Unless it's real vile, some of the cheaper stuff will work for flourishes, pells and limited blunt work.

[Shane Smith]

But anyway, my Question is this:
What can we do to ensure a correct future for what we do?

We must ensure that our own scholarly and martial integrity is maintained on an individual level first and foremost. We must live the martial ideal of efficiency in action and work to further our personal competence with the weapon as you are only as good a representative for the WMA as your skill allows. A poor Swordsman will never inspire those looking on to invest effort on their own in something that seems ineffective to them. If you can't perform like a bag full of razor blades on demand, you won't gain much respect among the public for our art...if you can, you need do no more than do so for all to see!

What's going to happen? I'm going to continue to get better and better. What are you going to do? <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Justin Lompado]

I have to agree with you on many points, especially "The historical studies people (like ARMA) are, as noted, always likely to be a smaller portion." This is true of many disciplines, martial or otherwise. We see this with EMA today as well. They suffer from a serious misconception ,albeit sometimes opposite our own, because people (ones that I know) seem to think their local karate masters are the reincarnation of Bruce Lee. I mentioned this in another post a while back, but I beleive moving historical swordsmanship mainstream is not a very effective way to disseminate the proper knowledge and spirit. So, we must remember that the re-creation of a martial art is a delicate science, and quality is immesurably more important than quantity if we are to be successful. I think that historical swordsmanship is for the time being better off being more low-key, because obviously there is not enough acceptable public opinion to facilitate an effective expansion. You might then say that the reason for this is because there is nobody teaching the public the truth, but then again think of the logistics involved in that. Take a look at this website to see the requirements for serious ARMA study; how can we plan to implement them on a much larger scale just yet? It may be a while before we know enough to be able to set up more universally-applicable training regulations on a mainstream scale, and even then we must first establish some real organization to enforce these regulations. Now, some people may be against that; but then again, such is the price for making historical swordsmanship mass-market; like karate for example. Many of you may read this and be against much of what I have said, and that is good, because I think most of us will agree that historical martial arts are better off the way they are now, smaller but purer, as opposed to bigger and cruder. Also note that I am not incinuating anyone has said we should mass market historical swordsmanship, I'm just using that term to illustrate my point. These are martial arts designed for battlefield combat, not for mere recreation and play. To rob them of that martial spirit is to me a supreme injustice and in effect destroys the purpose of trying to accuratley re-create and then preserve them. They are a window to our past, a great example of the breadth and effectivness of Western ingenuity and military science, and in my opinion must be treated as a long-lost but valuable treasure. One finds the situation of some Japanese martial arts similar to this. There are koryu in Japan that only practice samurai bujustsu in the old manner, which is why they are so few and largley unrepresented here. The martial arts are a never-ending search for perfection, both in weapon skill and character; but at the same time must be developed to some degree before they can be spread effectivley to those without experience. This is the same with almost every other discipline that has to be learned; there must first be a good teacher to pass on the methods, a receptive and thoughtful student to learn them and then build on and expand the knowledge even more. This pattern has been followed in trades and skills for all time, and is effective, so long as the craft stays free of perversion and there is a solid foundation capable of extending knowledge without sacrificing part of it or abridging it in almost any way. I realize this post may seem a bit disjointed, so feel free to ask me what I mean if you are unsure, and I hope nobody takes offense to this post; I welcome some constructive feedback.

[s_taillebois]

M. Lompando
Very well written and stated. Since the study of historical western martial arts, has appeal to a fairly small contingent, it really isn't that important if others 'contaminate the legacy'.
They will do what they will, as will the more historically oriented contingent. Therefore a genteel tolerance is probably the best route. In that manner those who wish to change their emphasis can do so. And should the very small amounts of people involved in the sport/discipline find themselves under political pressure because of the actions of some crazed idiot-both sides would still have enough good relations to work together against that pressure.
In any discipline/sport involving weapons in our now hoplophobic culture, making unnecessary divisions between like groups in probably inadvisible.

[Logan Weed]

Seems to me public knowledge of and interest in genuine WMA has only increased over the last five years. As I was merely 14 five years ago I can't really comment on the state of things prior to that but have been told they were in fact worse...

[Jake_Norwood]

I first got *seriously* involved about five or five and a half years ago, and I'd agree with that entirely. What we know now and what the public is beginning to absorb are much, much greater now than they were a few years ago.

I'd even say that the politics of it all have died down considerably now that the field has grown big enough for some of the larger egos to become subject matter experts in their own sub-fields...funny, but ultmately good for all of us, because it means more research of (hopefully) better quality.

And it's creeping (slowly) into the public conscious, whether in the form of a few real moves in Star Wars Episode III (some Zucken and a really nifty Schwertnemen variaiton used to take off Count Dooku's hands) or in-script references to systematized fighting in the crusades (Posta di Falcone in Kingdom of Heaven).

Well done? Well, not yet, but it's progress.

Jake

[Stacy Clifford]

I agree that people who distort the craft are always going to be around and do what they do despite our best efforts, and that ARMA is better off doing what it does now in a private capacity. However, I do believe that it is important for us to maintain a significant public presence as scholars, demonstrators and teachers to avoid being completely overshadowed by those who seek their own glory. The public has to be able to see that there are other groups out there with a different approach who are confident in what they do. If somebody isn't asking us for a first opinion, we want to be quickly thought of for a second opinion. Like it or not, there is a necessary PR component to what we hope to accomplish as an organization. The good thing is, I think we're already doing it right. The more experienced members and study groups regularly put on public demonstrations, John travels the world doing seminars and attending scholarly events, many members are in regular contact with the research community, and even our newer members who take the time to get involved in our larger community are quick to learn to dispute or dispel myths where they see them and try to represent what we do in a positive light. There's no "don't talk about Fight Club" here, we're proud of what we do, we have the knowledge, confidence and requisite humility to back it up, and we're not afraid to stand up in public and try to separate ourselves from the weirdos. Jake's right, we've come a long way since he and I started doing this. There's still a long way to go, but I see plenty of signs that we are on the right path.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

As kind of an "outsider" in terms of the rest of the groups, (don't really know that much about the others, except for a few groups) I would agree that the whole art seems to be growing.

As an ARMA Member for a relatively short amount of time, I have seen us grow quite a bit just in the last few years, and I think that is very telling. I see the trend continuing and overall it will be a very good thing in the long run, the trick will be to not let it overshadow the actual work that is being done, but it's only natural that we will have some that want, and will be able to contibute, some that want, but are unable to contribute, and then some that want to just participate, and either which way is fine if you ask me. - AP

[Nathan Dexter]

Thanks,
I think It was mostly the temporary "depression" left by reading that earlier thread! <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Justin Lompado]

And I thought I was the only one who pointed out to everyone else watching Episode III that those were longsword techniques. Nice to know.

[Justin Lompado]

"There's no "don't talk about Fight Club" here"

I agree, and I hope you did not take my post in that vein. I was just saying that to me it matters little for the tim ebeing what others do as long as we are growing and making steady and real progress. Its like slow-cooking food; it takes a bit longer but the result is a great experience almost everyone loves.