trouble with my mittlehau

[William Savage]

Mostley i see the middlehau started in tail and ending in tail. but in a picture from an itallian sword manual I saw the line of attack for the middlehau up across the parsons neck.

does this mean the italians performed their middlehaus starting in ox and ending in left ox? Or may they have started in zornhau?

PS is zornhau even a secondayr gaurd? i forget.

thanks

[Byron Doyle]

Sounds like what you are describing is a zwerchhau, which is a mittelhau, but it's up high. You can actually cut to the hanger (sp?) which resembles ochs from it to both sides. The difference between the hanger and ochs is that the blade will of course be aligned with the line you are cutting on. Zwerchhaus can be cut out of vom tag.

If you are talking about cutting from nebenhut (tail) to ochs, you are describing an unterhau, not a mittelhau. I haven't looked at your source so I can't be sure, but that's what it seems like to me. That would be cut along a diagonal line, and could be cut across the throat if you cut it up high. You should take a look at a segno for cutting lines, and remember that you can move the center of the sengo over your intended target. Hope this helps.

[William Savage]

Thanks for the reply, it does help.

To clarify what i am talking about, when one swithes from right to left ox or visa virsa, there is a quick cutting motion performed at about neck level. My question is, is this a proper attack?

And again, is there a wrathgaurd or just a wrathstrike not a gaurd to stay in?

Thanks

[Craig Peters]

To clarify what i am talking about, when one swithes from right to left ox or visa virsa, there is a quick cutting motion performed at about neck level. My question is, is this a proper attack?

It's a proper attack so long as it would have caused injury or death to your opponent had it been for real. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Here's photos of the execution of a Zwerchhau, which is really just a form of high mittelhau:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Mastercuts/Zwerchhau.jpg

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Mastercuts/Zwerchhau1.jpg

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Mastercuts/Zwerchhau2.jpg

Zwerchhau against an opponent:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Mastercuts/ZwerchhauPartner2.jpg

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Mastercuts/ZwerchhauPartner3.jpg

[Byron Doyle]

when one swithes from right to left ox or visa virsa...

Oh. I see. What you are talking about is like a schielhau, but from ochs to ochs. As you transition from one to the other, you turn your blade over. Direct that turn into a cut - that is where your power comes from. That is, as you are turing from right to left ochs (or the other way), you turn your blade, and at a point it is horizontal. When performing the cut, you basically "flatten" that turn, so that the blade spends more time horizonal, cutting. I dunno if this is a clear explaination, but now that I think about it it makes sense. It's that same sort of cut you can do by turning pflug over as you switch sides with it.

[Zach Palfreyman]

I'll try to explain how to strike the zwerch from tail. Stand in tail to your right, with long edge pointed at the enemy. From here you will strike his head with your short edge. Do this by lifting your hands above your head, then as you strike rotate long edge over the top and bring the short edge into line.

From here you will usually begin twitching back and forth with the same cut. Keep your hands high and strike with short edge when you cut from your right to left, and long edge when you go left to right. On the first strike you will usually want to use a traversing step, then once you are in range use a triangle step. Traversing step will let you cover a lot of distance and step you off-line, and triangle step will keep you in distance and also step you off-line. Also try throwing some from different angles rather than all perfectly horizontal with the ground, but try to keep your hands high the whole time. So some of your zwerch will be more like unterhau but with the hands above the head rather than dipping them clear down to your waste.

Zornhau would be the Wrathful Strike. The guard you are thinking of is called Zornhut, the Wrathful Guard. If it has hau at the end then that would be for strike/hew, and hut for guard. Zornhut is maybe a little like the Roof, but you hold it to the side with the blade resting on your shoulder, and point down instead of to the sky. You can take this guard if your enemy is in the Ox, then take a careful but forceful step and throw a fast and strong zornhau at him and you should take him.

[William Savage]

Hey thanks guys

these are the exact things I wanted to know, thanks for clearing it up.

[Byron Doyle]

Zornhut is maybe a little like the Roof, but you hold it to the side with the blade resting on your shoulder, and point down instead of to the sky.

We actually had a discussion about this not too long ago, and the general consensus, as well as tested theory, indicates that when in Zornhut it is in fact not very good to actually rest the blade on your shoulder, as it slows you down a bit both biomechanically (your muscles have to pull from a resting position instead of 'active'), as well as in terms of distance (the blade has more distance to travel before getting to the opponent). It is also my opinion (and others' as well) that Zornhut is more of a dynamic guard, and should not be stood in for longer than a few moments.

[Zach Palfreyman]

Indeed, I didn't mean to imply that you actually rest it on your shoulder, I was only trying to describe what it looks like. You don't actually set the tip of your sword on the ground while in Fool, but I usually see it described that way. I saw a piture of a guy using zornhut with a broken step in a book, I think Meyer. All guards are dynamic, that should go without saying (but sometimes worth mentioning).

[Byron Doyle]

I see. I maybe it's better to describe that zornhut to me is more transient, i.e. don't stand in zornhut, move through it. Kind of like longpoint (though longpoint does have some standing uses).