The 'disc'

[Allen Johnson]

I am reading Bart Walczak's translation of Lignitzer's Dagger via Danzig.
Frequenly they mention grips in reference to 'the disc' of the dagger. I know that many rondels have disc's as both hilts and pommels but I just wanted to make sure which is which in this case.

"The Third technique
When he has grasped his dagger so that the disc is at the thumb and thrusts..."

Also...
Are the illustrations for these passages lost?

[Eric Allen]

Maybe he's referring to a disc-shaped (a.k.a "wheel" shaped) pommel?
I don't know. Just guessing.

[Allen Johnson]

good thought but I dont think so. I think the daggers in question are these:
http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/displayimage.php?album=14&pos=137
http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/displayimage.php?album=14&pos=136
As you can see there are discs on both the hilt side and pommel side. Thus, my confusion <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Eric Allen]

Ah, Rondel daggers.
That's a good question, which disc is it?
If the "disc" is the "guard" one, then in the technique you describe, he's holding the dagger blade-up (blade sticking up from the thumb) like a sword and thrusting.
If the "disc" is the "pommel"`one, then he's holding the dagger blade-down (blade by pinkie).

Hmm.

By using the term "thrusting" I'm wondering if the first interpretation is correct, as the second is more what I would call "stabbing," but that is certainly not guaranteed. There is evidence of them being used held both ways.

Geeze, now I'm confused, too.

[Jeff Hansen]

Hi Allen,
For what it's worth the Mike Rasmussen translation on the shielhau.org site says "pommel stands by his thumb". That said, try it both ways and see which way the defence works out best. That should clear it up. The proof is always in the doing.

[Eric Allen]

If that's the proper translation, then the "blade-down" "stabbing" would be the intrepretation.

[Allen Johnson]

Thanks Jeff- I hadn't seen that.
For that one bit- yeah. They do have it appearing at both the pinky and by the thumb so...

[Casper Bradak]

There are many examples of rondel daggers with only a rondel at the blade, and the pommel side being either a flared grip or some other pommel or cap, not vice versa.