Sparring Gloves/Waster

[Guest]

That wasters and sparring swords were diffrent things I had already figured out, wasters are wooden swords, I made my fisrt one 18 years ago, my father made his first one 43 years ago. The question is: why should someone use an undressed one outside solo practice?
I've lost blood to wasters and this changed my perspective on the subject.
A little rubber coating would render wasters safer (they sell foam covered wasters and you can apply to a waster a tube of termo isolant rubber without ruining it's handling qualities).
When I discussed this matter with Haca's armourer he answered that wasters were used in fencing schools in the past so they are historically correct, I thought and still think that sparring swords should be used at all times when you paractice with someone else, in the past they had no other choice.
You do not want to hurt, but it happens.

[Jake_Norwood]

I'm missing the role of the waster in sword practice, I just do not get the point.

Wasters are a cheaper and safer alternative to steel. Padded swords--no matter how well made--aren't swords. They're toys at worst, and good training simulators at best, but they aren't rigid, don't bind well, lack proper wieght, and tend to bounce off of one another in a way that wood won't. Wood isn't steel, but the differences between a waster and a sparring sword are larger than the differences between a waster and a steel sword.

We also know that historically wasters were used in training. It's hard to argue with the way things were done when we're not even close to the skill level represented by the old masters (who trained with wood, not padded swords).

The padded swords are a very important tool used for full or near-full contact work, but they simply won't do when working on and refining real technique.

Jake

[Jake_Norwood]

Re: Sparring sword injuries

I agree that wasters can bash up fingers, but the only time I broke a finger was when I got hit with a sparring sword. Since then I use skill and judgement to prevent waster injuries. Wasters simply aren't meant for the kind of vigorous contact that padded weapons are. A certain (greater) modicum of precaution needs to be used with wasters, but that is also part of their value.

Jake

[Guest]

For the weight of sparring swords you can try a little trick I invented: roll some lead leaf around the forte and pommel.

I think that sparring swords shouldn't be strong enough to break bones.

As to the wounds matter, I recieved a flesh bleeding wound from the point of a waster, it took three weeks to get my strong hand back into business. I'm not arguing the skill of old masters or yours, it's that I fear wasters that have no coating...

I conducted a little experiment, during which I managed to punch a hole into a punching bag with the point of a waster: it can kill.

[Shane Smith]

Hello Carlo,

Indeed a waster CAN kill if not used wisely but then so can my bare hands or my feet.When I practice any martial art be it empty-hand or longsword, there is simply NO way to make it perfectly "safe".Martial arts involve contact of neccessity.I would contend that if there is truly no danger,there is no martial art. I believe that safety is more of an application and attitudinal issue than an equipment issue.I do wear protective equipment(as we all should) but I find the greatest aid to safety to be a fellow scholar that doesn't suffer from "Big Dog Syndrome".My fellow scholars and Martial Artists know exactly what I'm speaking of here.I have to date never met an ARMA scholar with this malady <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> .

[Guest]

Hi Shane, maybe you got the point again here, because I, God forgive me, and you do not spank me with an iron paddle, while being a ARMA admirer and going to become a member in days... see the matter of historical fencing more as a sport than as a martial art. The reasons are many and I know I'm guilty of something in this... I like to study correct tecniques, but I do not feel much need for realism, my "pard" is even more enfatic than me on this.

What's the Big Dog Syndrome? To me it sounds like "Malattia del grande cane" which has no meaning in Italian.

[Guest]

"see the matter of historical fencing more as a sport than as a martial art" <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

What!?! Where did you come up with that? <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" />

Sports have rules and set guidelines for safety with an intended purpose to entertain. This is not sport fencing. Medieval soldiers didn't fence for sport thats what Jousting Tourney's where for.

Wasters are historically accurate. Sparring swords are used to put the scholar as close to fighting with weapons as possible without having to purchase expensive armor. But as Jake said they aren't real swords but they have thier place in our study approach. Sparring with blunts can be dangerous without protective equipment.

Historical Fencing is a martial art not a sport. If a sport is what your looking for than I would say try sport fencing. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Todd

[Jared L. Cass]

"Big Dog Syndrome" is when practicing techniques with a partner, instead of holding a helpful attitude in the heart, a person instead holds a "I'm going to act like I'm going to help you out, but really I just want to prove I'm better than you." This attitude is not only counter productive to learning, it's also dangerous. Someone with the "big dog complex" will often "ambush" you to try to prove their superiority.

I agree that for something to be considered a martial art, it will undoubtably often be dangerous. This is it's purpose for existing. We should remember that the Master's made mention that "what hurts teaches," and "the faint of heart shouldn't learn fencing." It is up to our training partners to help us learn and keep us safe from any bodily damage. But, the chance of being injured is always there. We should accept this as part of our fencing education.

That said...ALWAYS wear saftey equipment. And if you aren't comfortable working with a certain partner, tell them so, and find somebody else to work with.

I look forward to someday having you with ARMA, Carlo. I can tell that you don't suffer from "big dog syndrome", and that you'll always put the safety of your partner first! <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass, Wisconsin

[Guest]

there are some reason that justify my point of vew
1) I'm not there with you, I study with the sole guide of ARMA's writings and advices (that's why I ask "why" as often as a child, JC knows this well...)
2) I soon found that those who I've practiced with loved to spar but not to train much, one of them became good in sparring, but I do not insist in making him use histor. accurate techniques, he spars for fan, I try to be historically correct while we spar
3) when sparring is your primary activity, you tend to consider it as an informal sport because you try to touch first, without much martial spirit; when one puts a broom between his legs and charges you with horses sounds, martial spirit is gone forever <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> (some people are clowns)
4) I'm not qualified to use or teach steel swords, wasters require good control too, and would hurt at times, both me and my pard can't risk hand injure (I compete with rifles, he plays guitar)
5) I'm really far from the medieval mentality, I love late renaissance and xviii-xix centuries, I'm a student of logic and phylosophy of science, not a warrior.
6) being a rangemaster, responsible of the safety of teens practicing with target guns, I became a maniac of accident prevention

7) some see historycal fencing only as an historycal activity, ARMA has an all around perspective, but practicing with sparring swords without marial intent is a possible piece of the whole ARMA studies, and is the more logical one for someone who lacks the proximity of a qualified instructor

[Jake_Norwood]

For the weight of sparring swords you can try a little trick I invented: roll some lead leaf around the forte and pommel.

Sounds great. I'll try that.

I think that sparring swords shouldn't be strong enough to break bones.

I agree--we ditched that design! It did handle almost exactly like steel, though. Too bad. That being said, I don't care how padded or safe something is supposed to be, if you're sparring to really hit and not just touch, there's always a danger of injury--even with foam noodles.

As to the wounds matter, I recieved a flesh bleeding wound from the point of a waster, it took three weeks to get my strong hand back into business. I'm not arguing the skill of old masters or yours, it's that I fear wasters that have no coating...

I conducted a little experiment, during which I managed to punch a hole into a punching bag with the point of a waster: it can kill.

Yes, wasters can kill, but I'm quite suprised at your punching-bag story. Is your waster pointed? The once we use are quite round at the tips, and we've never broken flesh (though we have a few bruises). Also, thrusting with a waster against a live opponent can be very dangerous, and should be avoided. If you don't have any training partners that are dedicated to truly learning the technique and discipline, then padded weapons are certainly safer, but you will be stunted in your growth as a swordsman.

Jake

[Guest]

Yep, sadly I'd left the point square, see how smart I was <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> ?
(I'd built the waster myself)

The bag punch trough was effected after I got wounded with the guilty square pointed waster, half swording, the sharp angle penetrated a half inch and teared the tissue.
I managed to duplicate the feat with a rond stick, which penetrated less (the jo of aikido), you do not need to use much strenght but an accurate blow that concentrates the energy on the "half moon" (one side of the circumference of the point).

I know my growth will be limited, there is time, now I've to take it like it is.

Tape the lead tightly, it rattles a lot if you do not, nailing doesn't work because the holes enlarge after you use the sword for a bit.

[Guest]

"Sports have rules and set guidelines for safety with an intended purpose to entertain. This is not sport fencing. Medieval soldiers didn't fence for sport thats what Jousting Tourney's where for."

If you're weapon sparring with safe gear and rules, then I guess you could look at that as a sport, like kendo or FMA sparring.

Mike

[Guest]

I drive a car to work but it doesn't make me a NASCAR driver. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

I think your disliking for the connection between "historical fencing" and the word "sport" is understandable. Sure fencing was not a sport when it was invented, as a study I do not consider it a sport myself. Sparring, on the other hand, is conducted under certain rules and when you engage with someone who is not really interested in the martial spirit of the things, you are either playing a game or a sport.
I would not exagerate the difference in skill between the historical fencer and the (true) sport fencer in the use of the tools of the first: as I reported to JC a couple of years ago, I engaged (with padded swords) with a foil master and he trusted into my left eye before I could think to parry, I suffered no wound but my ego got resized <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
There are other things you can do with a sword that are games, I like to throw a foam rubber ball against a wall with my left hand and hit it with the sword as it comes back, may sound stupid, but it's fun and I think it helped because 90% of my hits in sparring are countercuts to the wirst.
Now tell me that going in the woods and cutting plants isn't a game...
Another consideration: maybe it's a blasfemy to call "sport" sparring with renaissance swords' simulators, but I practice 1700 fencing with the spadroon now for the most part. In 1700 fencing (outside small sword duels) was conducted also with the gladiating spirit of a dangerous sport, for money and bets.
You can't compare your driving at work with my attempt to fence, you drive because you have to, I try to push for getting better, within my limits of course, when you are satisfied of your driving skill, you do not insist in the "I practice and read in order to learn" philosophy.

[TimSheetz]

Hi All,

We can't use the term sport for everything we think of as "fun". There are so many layers of attitudes that affect what we do when we train. The BIGGEST divider between SPORT and what we do is that in a sport, we are trying to "WIN" based on a system of points... in what we should be doing we are trying to develop martial skills. There are many variations on this.. sure I have set up obviously canned situations to force people to use new or different techniques and skills that they usually don't use.. Like try sparring long sword but only draw cutting (A great arm work out)... and if you hit too hard for these 'rules' a little negative reinforcement helps folks 'focus'.

I am rambling, but because something is fun doesn't mean it is a sport. You can regard your training in a lighthearted way sometimes, and have fun with it... but the biggest rule is this: We train and use sparring to develop skills, we don't train to spar. If you train to spar, then you are in a sport.

I apologize in advance if this seems disjointed.. I have to type fast.

Thanks,

Tim