Rapier vs. Longsword

[Justin Blackford]

Actually, me and my esteemed colleague(Kevin) crosstrain with wooden waster forms of the rapier and longsword and really only use some face protection and control our strikes and thrusts so as to only make it known that the opponent would have been hit rather than just going hell-for-leather in 100% full speed bouts wherein somebody could get easily injured by a fully-powered strike or thrust with a waster.
We do spar with intent, we're just extremely careful when the strikes and thrusts are ready to terminate on the opponent's exposure. Control is our strongest emphasis, although mishaps do still occasionally occur. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
We train in the circumstances of an urban setting in which both fighters are unarmoured and have only their sword at their disposal for immediate self-defense. It is more reminiscent of the transition period between the wider cutting blades' dominance and the evolution of the narrower foyning blades. I can't really imagine any circumstance where an unarmoured rapier fighter would want to encounter an armoured longsword wielder, since the rapier's point is loth to penetrate such strong defenses. Personally, I'd either run or discard the rapier for a sturdy rondel dagger that is far more wont to handle the gaps in the armour.

Justin

[Shane Smith]

I'm with you Gary. I don't think it likely that a renaissance guy with a civilian rapier ran into an armoured medieval Swordsman with a longsword very often in period. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Bring unto me a rapier fencer!!! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Jeffrey Hull]

To further Gary's point:

A whole division, if you will, of Kunst des Fechtens was devoted precisely to unarmoured longsword fighting and dueling -- what was commonly called Bloszfechten.

[JeanryChandler]

Iv'e done a little longsword vs. rapier.

You can see some longsword vs. rapier in this old "propaganda" clip from the now defunct unaffiliated New Orleans longsword study group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loorVFe2cRo

In one bout I take my weapon off-point and strike late, ending up recieving a nice thrust into my throat. In two others I'm just barely able to control the rapier beating it aside and counter cut but form is very awkward, as Stacy (?) mentioned you cant step in with normal footwork. You can't let your weapon go too far offline either.

Incidentally, I think it (longsword vs rapier) could have happened historically given the variety and types of rural and urban quasi-military fights which seem to have so frequently taken place during the Renaissance, as reflected in some excellent anecdotes here on the ARMA page. (brawls with different weapons, if not specifically rapier vs. longsword)

I think a longsword would be a common wepon to bring riding or in the countryside whereas a sidesword would be more common in a town. But I can't imagine why the zones couldn't overlap...

Jeanry

[Bill Tsafa]

Nice vids !!! Are those RSA weapons from Hong kong you are useing? of did you find some other manufacturer?

I was not clear in my earlier post, I mixed the issue of historical armor up with modern safety concerns. I have seen the manuscrips showing unarmored longsword figthing.

My interest was in being able to fight at full speed and full stength. This will be somewhat limited when you are fighting with wood or alluminum. The sword you are using in more of what I would prefer. The sword being of plastic and foam allows more realistic speed and stength behind the hits. Justin answered my question in saying that they use controlled hits.

[JeanryChandler]

The padded weapons are my "padded wasters". I've made them for numerous ARMA members. They are similar to Lances RSW except they still use duct tape, and are maybe a little harder.

The steel weapons in the vid are IIRC schlager blades and practice rapier blades, which are basically extra springy steel rapiers, suitible for thrusting because they bend easily (they have a cap at the end of the blade) somewhat less so for 'cutting' but we didn't worry about it too much.

DB

[TimSheetz]

Shane, the Rapier fencer vs long sword would be in trouble.... unless he caught you unprepared and stabbed you through your eye...

I think the Rapier fencer can manage the risks against long sword if he has:

1 - ONE opponent
2 - Plenty of maneuver room
3 - is unencumbered by extra gear and equipment
4 - is of good skill

If any part of this equation is off, the rapier fencer would be unable to manage the risks adequately and is great danger of losing various parts of his anatomy in a more or less simultaneous manner.

The timing and the space with which to manage it is very important... and half swording is not a good deal for him as the long sword wielder can do the same...

Circumstances change if we add second weapons and such... in the evaluation, circumstances weigh in heavily in my opinion.

Peace,

Tim

PS: Shane, I plan on a stop by in VAB in late June time frame...

[Shane Smith]

PS: Shane, I plan on a stop by in VAB in late June time frame...

We'd all love to see you and cross swords again! I'm carrying three daggers this time though! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[TimSheetz]

We'll see who gets to them first!

[Kevin-Irizarry]

To those who are concerned about safety; We use (as Justin stated above) a modern paintball mask for facial protection, and just gloves for and wrist protection. We do take extreame caution in our training, and we only use at the most, an adapted (weighted and properly peiced together) LARP long sword, as well with wooden wasters. I've actually experimented with wasters of all sorts, if you're interrested send me a note.

For the statement suggested about half-sword (I forgot your name so quickly, sorry!), Once the rapier weilder goes into a half-sword position, his opponent, the longsword weilder, can do the same, or (if they're that close), can just bring the pommel crashing into their opponent's skull. Which hurts. Alot. Believe me. Thanks Justin.

My point being, the longsword is just a more versitile weapon. Much like the swiss-army knives versus a sheath knife.

[Justin Blackford]

Actually, the incident where I hit you in the head which I recall was during longsword vs. longsword practice and I used the pommel to hook you between the hands as I zuckened from the bind and forced you into a vertical oberhau. Unless you're referring to another incident of which I don't seem to remember at this time.
You claim that the longsword is a more versatile weapon because it can both cut and thrust and be used as a bludgeon with the quillons and pommel. Be reminded that the rapier can also cut, but just not nearly as well, since the narrow blade with a hexagonal cross-section emphasises the faster thrust. The pommel of the rapier is also employed with great efficiency as a bludgeon. Just see Salvator Fabris template no. 179 in his book.

Like Swetnam said in his manual,

"Also they say that a man with a sword will cut off thy rapier at one blow, but I say this is a most cowardly kind of ignorance, for is a skillful man doe hold the rapier, it is not a hundred blows with a sword can doe a rapier any harme, no although they light upon him."

also

"Yet many are of the opinion, and will say, it is better to fight with a Sword and Dagger, then with Rapier and Dagger, the reason is (say they) with my Sword I may both strike and thrust."

Swetnam taught both sword and rapier, but I think the point he was trying to reach was that there is no true "superiority" of one sword over another, but rather the skill and potential of its wielder. If a highly skilled rapier wielder manages to outreach and outtime twenty or so longsword or shortsword fencers in a row(hypothetically speaking, of course), does that not prove that it was the skill of the individual and not the design of the weapon that determines true martial superiority?

Justin