Beginners questions, basic cuts, footwork

[Jean-Luc Ancelin]

Hello everyone !

A beginner on the path of the sword, I appreciate and highly respect the wealth of material you ARMAters have contributed on this website.

I have waded through it for hours on end already (my wife tells me too many hours). For quite some time -years- I have been considering taking the plunge and studying earnestly, but life, family, job... and finally I am in the water trying to swim. I have started practicing alone the various stances, footwork, and basic cuts on a 30 minutes per day basis.

I would like to begin learning as straight as I can from the start. My core manual is John Clement's "Medieval Swordsmanship". I have ordered my first waster from Raven. While it is being lovingly crafted, I have to make do with what I have and that is : a wooden dowel (longsword sized), and ... a one handed short sword old stage prop (well I strive to not do the same mistake twice).

I have some questions here for you experienced people. Please moderator/webmaster tell me if I should make a separate post for each question (which would make many) or is it okay to pile them in one.

Question I : After careful study and measurements of afore-mentioned prop, I was surprised that it is not that bad, figures-wise :
-overall weight 2lb 10oz
-overall length 35 inches
-blade length 28 inches
-point of balance 4 inches from guard
-"sweet spot" hitting at hard target 6-8 inches from tip
-"pendulum equivalent" is almost at the tip
Would using it be detrimental to my learning or is there a way I can make that metal thing useful ?

Question II : I would like to study both longsword and medieval sword and shield. I take to heart the "cross-train" advice found around here. Would starting these together be detrimental or beneficial to my training, and why ?

Question III : I do not have a pell (yet), but a stack of logs I can strike at. This I did with the one handed prop. I wonder about the follow-through/recovery issue. A hard strike on something as solid as a tree trunk does not go through the target but rather bounces off it. Should I strive to make my hits less bouncy by making them "stick" on target, or simply recover from whatever bounce as fast as I can, or should I reverse movement to the initial stance ? My own cutting experience is limited to gardening with a sickle, so I know about edge alignment but not much more.

Question IV : When starting from Nebenhut and cutting diagonally upwards with the true edge, I cannot "feel" the Ochs ward I should try to end in. The sword just flies upward and way beyond Ochs. Any suggestions ?

Question V : Regarding footwork, I feel confused by Silver's comments on the true and false times, which lead me to believe I should strike quicker than I move my feet. This would mean hitting while not being stable on my feet. And there is also this German master (sorry I cannot find it again right now) who says approximately "he who moves after he strikes has no reason to be proud of his art". Did I misunderstand something ? How should I interpret this kind of paradox for actually studying footwork/striking combination ?

Question VI : I am already looking for sparring partners around me (western France, Britanny to be precise). How early should I start sparring ? Is there a way to tell when my/our level of practice is good enough to start sparring ?

Okay I hope I did not bother you too much with dumb questions.

Take care
JL

[Dylan palmer]

hello and welcome to the form i dont have the time to anwser all these questions none of which are dumb by the way.

but i think you should start sparring as soon as posible simply for the fact it is the most important part of training.
(I.M.H.O)
keep in mind almost anything can work in theroy but being able to choose what will work and what will not work is experiance only sparring can give.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Question I : After careful study and measurements of afore-mentioned prop, I was surprised that it is not that bad, figures-wise :
-overall weight 2lb 10oz
-overall length 35 inches
-blade length 28 inches
-point of balance 4 inches from guard
-"sweet spot" hitting at hard target 6-8 inches from tip
-"pendulum equivalent" is almost at the tip
Would using it be detrimental to my learning or is there a way I can make that metal thing useful ?"

Vadi says you want a sword that comes up to your armit from the ground in length and a cross as wide as the handle is long. In terms of point of balance, it depends if you are looking for primarily a cutter or a thruster.

"Question II : I would like to study both longsword and medieval sword and shield. I take to heart the "cross-train" advice found around here. Would starting these together be detrimental or beneficial to my training, and why ?"

ARMA starts with the longsword as the foundational weapon, from there you branch out into other things. As you are doubless aware, there are also ringen, dolchfechten, sword and buckler and polearms, and for later periods we can add cut and thrust sword and rapier. In terms of medieval sword and shield, there aren't many manuals out there that teach it that I am aware of. There IS a lot of sword and buckler material available.

"Question III : I do not have a pell (yet), but a stack of logs I can strike at. This I did with the one handed prop. I wonder about the follow-through/recovery issue. A hard strike on something as solid as a tree trunk does not go through the target but rather bounces off it. Should I strive to make my hits less bouncy by making them "stick" on target, or simply recover from whatever bounce as fast as I can, or should I reverse movement to the initial stance ? My own cutting experience is limited to gardening with a sickle, so I know about edge alignment but not much more."

Edge alignment is the first prerequisite for a good cut (unless you are trying to do Meyer's prelhau, which is a whole different discussion.... <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ). You can cut thrust or slice with your edge. Thrusting is pretty obvious. Cutting would be you hitting the pell hard with your edge to chop into it (think of hitting a log with an axe) and then recover with the bounce to do something else. The slice ("schnitt") is more placing the blade on the target and then using your body weight to slice the target open.

"Question IV : When starting from Nebenhut and cutting diagonally upwards with the true edge, I cannot "feel" the Ochs ward I should try to end in. The sword just flies upward and way beyond Ochs. Any suggestions ?"

Well, you have just discovered Meyer's einhorn (unicorn) guard, which has it own uses <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> . I suggest building the correct muscle memory, going slow if you need to at first.

"Question V : Regarding footwork, I feel confused by Silver's comments on the true and false times, which lead me to believe I should strike quicker than I move my feet. This would mean hitting while not being stable on my feet. And there is also this German master (sorry I cannot find it again right now) who says approximately "he who moves after he strikes has no reason to be proud of his art". Did I misunderstand something ? How should I interpret this kind of paradox for actually studying footwork/striking combination ?"

Don't forget, while Silver's time of the hand, body and then foot is a true time, also doing hand, body and foot at the SAME time are also true times. It is only the foot, body then the hand that is a false time since (in my opinion) it telegraphs to your opponent your intention. Just so long as the hand moves first, you can move the body and foot with it simultaneously or not (depending on what you are trying to do).

"Question VI : I am already looking for sparring partners around me (western France, Britanny to be precise)."

Phillip Waullume is based now in the UK, but I think he is French originally. Maybe he can suggest some folks to you.

" How early should I start sparring ? Is there a way to tell when my/our level of practice is good enough to start sparring ?"


Spar early and often, with minimal rules.

[Jean-Luc Ancelin]

Thank you for such a detailed and quick response !

Isn't that unicorn stance a bit like a Vom Dach ? Is there a significant difference in what can be done from these two ?

Guess I must find someone else whom I can spar with, soonest...

[Jaron Bernstein]

Vom tag (or Von Dach) is "from the roof" or "day". It is shown on the stances on the main ARMA page here. Einhorn (unicorn) is different. Take up a right Ochs (where the sword is on your right side and horizonal with the tip pointing at your opponent). This is also illustrated on the ARMA page.

Now from that Ochs, raise your point and your arms higher (so it is pointing roughly 45 degrees up). That is enhorn. It is shown and explained in the Meyer text with a beautiful woodcut to illustrate.

[Jean-Luc Ancelin]

Ah all right, so the tip is facing forward and up in unicorn, and rearward and up in roof, and the hands are not in the same place at all, thanks for clarifying that

[Richard Strey]

I'd put it this way:
Vom Tag is the finishing position of a short-edge vertical cut from Alber. Einhorn is the finishing position of a diagonal long-edge cut from either Nebenhut or Wechsel past the corresponding Ochs. This leaves you with the weapon pointing roughly 45° upwards, with the *long* edge up.

[Ernest Brant]

Jean-Luc,

My wife is from Brittany and we travel to St. Lunaire every year to visit family. I also have a brother-in-law in Rennes and inlaws in other areas of Brittany. This year we are leaving in May for France and I will be there for about two and a half weeks. If you are interested in chatting, PM or email and we will see what can be arranged.