swords and alchemy

[Guest]

Hi everyone, did a connection between fencing and alchemy come out yet?
I'm not talking about alchemy in the sense of pre-chemistry practice that attributes healig properties to the bezohar, this sense being close to the original meaning of "al chimia" arabian for "the substance"; in this sense it will be surely related with swordmaking.
I'm talking about the alchemy in the sense of cabbalah with regard to symbolized reality; in this sense, fencing schools with connections with certain noble families or secret association might have had tecniques with a mystical meaning, some of the "botte segrete" could actually be of this kind.
It could also be that some wards have an alchemical meaning.
The thing is not improbable as it seems because it has been customary for the European "elite" to be part of secret associations having a symbolized language. (See "The chemical wedding of Christian Rosencreutz")

Points to start with there are many:
1) animals associated to the 4 evangelists
2) animals or other symbols related to noble families
3) specific Saint's name given to a tecnique where the cult of the Saint is practiced by the "elite"
4) specific "botta" used by fencers connected with a religious order etc...

[Jared L. Cass]

Carlo, I'm not sure of any connections (I'm new to this whole "research" to figure things out, as opposed to the "show me, and I'll try it" school). It would be an extremely interesting field of study! While I'm not positive, I'm pretty sure that the Templars and other "warrior" societies in the middle ages practiced a more gnostic form of christianity. It does make sense that perhaps some of the things we see in the manuals may indeed have an esoteric/secret society type of meaning.

In earlier scandinavian regions I'm positive, based on surviving rune carved/engraved drinking horns, spear heads, ect., that the esoteric was alive and well at that time period. And, unless others can shed some light on the subject you mentioned, research is what will be needed to prove a connection or not. Very interesting line of thought <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass, Wisconsin

p.s: is this off subject, JC?

[Guest]

An Italian instructor once told me that the templars had a strike to the knee, involving a full spin to enanche power, and that the strike was meant to make the "faithless" kneel in front of the Lord.

But, ehm, I do not believe to that particular statement...

I think relics of once "secret" blows, wards etc... might be found in fencing because secret blows chease to be secret than one uses them and they are learnt by others. The problem is that of spotting which manouvers might have had an "alchemic" sense when they were invented, for this reason I think that the name of the "botta" can be a clue.

This isn't an easy matter, European culture of the middle age and renaissance had a lot of secret symbols and it's hard to believe that fencing was immune to this trend.

[steve hick]

Carlo,

The people doing dei Liberi (Charon, Easton or Lovett) are exploring this in relation to that body of work, also check on Michael Greer, who is very invovled in occult studies, and is doing a complete Thibault translation for Chivalry Bookshelf. There are evocative stuff associated with some of the German manuals. I don't know of a detailed study done yet on this subject alone

Steve

[Guest]

Thanks.
where do I find them?

[steve hick]

Matt sometimes posts here, so look for his particulars here. Rob and Bob -- you can try some of the other fora, netsword, swordforum, armor archive. Michael Greer, I've never seen post -- I'd ask Brian Price at Chivalry Bookshelf to put you in contact.

As to German ephemera, I've seen Kieth Myers post some on that, he's ARMA DC and his particulars should be somewhere on this website.

Again, other than Greer, I don't think this area is anyones primary area of research.

Steve