Meisterhauen

[Jake_Norwood]

From pflug or, as Meyer and Ringeck state, from wrath guard.

But I'm not sure I follow your question.

Jake

[Jeffrey Hull]

In Liechtenauer & Ringeck, it seems that one might have to over-reach the Krumphau, especially as one goes explosively to the side, in order to strike the hands of the foe.

However, I found after some intense practice of Zwerchhau (for example) the other night, that over-reaching was not a problem with that particular technique, if done correctly.

Hence, perhaps over-reaching the Krumphau is likewise really not a problem. Thanks, JH

[Jake_Norwood]

What do you mean by "over-reach?"

Thanks,
Jake

[Jeffrey Hull]

Over-reach...well, I always though it was self-explanatroy; but since you asked, I would say that it means:

To reach so far with a technique, as to sacrifice balance and/or power while trying to strike the foe.

Like I said, this may not be the case, and I found correcting of an error regarding such during recent training.

Any comments thereof, now that it is defined, are welcome.

Thanks,

JH

[Jake_Norwood]

Gotcha. I wasn't 100%, and a lot of confusion can be avoided by making sure.

I find that over-reaching is no problem at all with the krump or any other controlled blow. That being said, what is the best recovery from a krump than misses, seeing as you're now in essentially a "weak crosswise guard" variation of schrankhut?

Jake

[Scott Anderson]

my guess would be that even if you miss with the krumphau (and i'm assuming that's really only possible by moving too soon or getting hit) would be to step back where you started while transitioning through wrathful or roof and returning the strike, but that's just me.

of course if you got hit, the recovery would be to fall down in lots of pain.

SPA

[Jared L. Cass]

A follow up technique to a missed krumphau...my response would be to quickly transition too an inside guard and simply "thrust through." No momentum is lost, and god forbid your opponent voids the thrust...your are then in a strong position, which is easly changed.

I'm sure that is just one of an infanite ammount of responses, but it's what I would probably do <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass

[Jake_Norwood]

interesting ideas, but a missed krump leaves you in a crossed-arm schrankut (like iron door to the left, sort of). That's not a real comfortable position to thrust from...the point is down, hilt up, hands crossed...

Jake

[Jared L. Cass]

I should have specified a bit more clearly<img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" /> By quickly bringing the point around (uncrossing the hands) and "tucking" the sword handle under my left arm what I end up in is a left-side-close guard.

The internet sucks for conveying ideas and motion <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass, Wisconsin

[Tony_Indurante]

Jake,

I find it natural to pull back into ochs.

[Jake_Norwood]

Tony-

Good call--that is quite natural. You can pass through hengen on the way, too, which is nice.

Jared-

So transition into Boar's Tooth or Pflug--that also works, doesn't it. You know, it's dumb, but if I had just gone outside I would have figured both of those out in under 3 minutes. Ah well, it's fun to discuss it, isn't it?

Jake

[Jared L. Cass]

Yep, it's alot of fun to discuss! It's great to see the variety of responses. We should do stuff like this more often <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass, Wisconsin

[Jeffrey Hull]

If you "snap" that Krumphau back, then you can track it back through its previous arc and continue it down and up again into an Unterhau, assuming your footwork has allowed you to make such a "rebound", rather than following through to the more usual Schrankhut. Does this make sense? JH

[Scott Anderson]

I'm just wondering why you would want to waste the momentum by transitioning into either pflug or ochs? from the krump you are a coiled spring ready to strike. so much so that even if i hit with it it's instinctive to automatically throw a second strike. this will usually follow one of three paths depending on exactly how my feet are set. the first would be to just unwind and snap another false edge cut towards the face (not my favorite choice personally as it can bind with the other blade), the second would be what i posted before, the third would be similar but rather than a strike coming straight down, it would come in from the side or low. I can do any of these faster than pulling back into the previously mentioned guards. does this make sense to anyone else?

SPA

[Jake_Norwood]

If you "snap" that Krumphau back, then you can track it back through its previous arc and continue it down and up again into an Unterhau, assuming your footwork has allowed you to make such a "rebound", rather than following through to the more usual Schrankhut. Does this make sense? JH

Yes it does. I'm gonna play with all of this tonight.

I'm just wondering why you would want to waste the momentum by transitioning into either pflug or ochs? from the krump you are a coiled spring ready to strike. so much so that even if i hit with it it's instinctive to automatically throw a second strike.

True, but if you miss (and we're assuming that you did), then a second strike may not be the wisest option. If you've been thrown on the defensive by your error (a common thing), then Ochs or hengen from weak-crosswise guard may be just the ticket to re-take the Vor. The thrust that you described (and the unwinding false-edge to the face) both technically pass through Pflug on the way to their target. I'm not suggesting staying there! The guard references were to visualize the sword's path.

this will usually follow one of three paths depending on exactly how my feet are set. the first would be to just unwind and snap another false edge cut towards the face (not my favorite choice personally as it can bind with the other blade),

This is a good alternative. If you've krump'ed properly then your right leg is out front, and this technique could either attack with a cut or thrust, defend by covering (going into the short-edge pflug that Bart used to talk about from Von Danzig, I think it was), or bind. I think binding here is a good thing, because you've allready wound to the short edge and will likely have superior leverage.

the second would be what i posted before,

Which is:

my guess would be that even if you miss with the krumphau (and i'm assuming that's really only possible by moving too soon or getting hit) would be to step back where you started while transitioning through wrathful or roof and returning the strike, but that's just me.

This would be a short-edge unterhau, like from boar's to wrath? I actually hadn't spent much thought on that option. I'll be trying it tonight. Unless you flipped the blade so that the false edge was open for a cut, though, this would be a wasted action, I think.

the third would be similar but rather than a strike coming straight down, it would come in from the side or low

so to throw a true edge cut by rotating the blade and passing forward, as if you'd cut from tail to ochs on the right? Or do you mean throw this 3rd cut from wrath guard?

I can do any of these faster than pulling back into the previously mentioned guards. does this make sense to anyone else?

I think it does make sense, except that several of the above techniques do return to one of several guards, such as boar's tooth or pflug, or even to ochs as the final result of an unterhau. Don't forget also that the weak-crosswise guard (the schrankhut as it results from the frump) is really just a low left hengen. Transitioning into it's higher brother can lead to several opportunities to deflect, cut, or thrust.

When are you guys coming up to train with us?

Jake