Training equipment question

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JeremyDillon
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Training equipment question

Postby JeremyDillon » Sun May 14, 2006 6:48 pm

Greetings. I am happy to say that this is my first foray into the ARMA forums, I hope you all will be kind <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> . I am wondering if any of you fine gentlepeople have any information for me on how to acquire (either through purchase or construction)inexpensive light armor conforming with the guidlines for light armor set down by ARMA's free-play rules. I am but a lowly teen and currently without the ready currency necessary for the more expensive alternatives. Any help would be greatly apreciated.

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Josh Welsh
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Re: Training equipment question

Postby Josh Welsh » Sun May 14, 2006 8:36 pm

Greetings fine sir! While language akin to this is by no mean necessary, I find it quite amusing.

Ok, I ran out of old english....

My sparring armour is pretty simple. I definatelty know what it's like to be on a tight budget. Keep in mind, that unless you are sparring with padded weapons, you will be going SLLLLOOOOWWWWWW and cautious. So, no one should be hurt. But accidents do happen, and people get carried away. My point is, you don't need alot of armour.

You definately need gloves. Look for motorcycle gauntlets. Get some that have padding on the top of the hand, and the fingers. You will be glad you bought them. They are usually around $50, and are one of the more expensive pieces of armour you will need, but they are the most important by far, IMHO. I shopped around, and found a pair for $35.

Next, get some elbow pads. If you are sparring or winding, and you happen to get cracked in the elbow, you will learn the funny bone, isn't that funny! You can get these almost anywhere. Check thrift stores!

Also important if you plan to spar, a helmet or sparring mask. You can get sparring masks for fencing, and they work, but I preffer a full helmet. Anything with lots of padding should do the trick. A hockey mask is about the best you can get. The grill covers the entire face. Catcher's helmets, and football helmets also work, but you may want to add to the grill. Trust me, a Zwerchau that just happens to slide through your helmet, and hit the brige of your nose, will HURT! Our group is planning on soon modifying our helmets, by adding mesh grills with built-in gorgets (neck protection). Check thrift shops, and sports stores. My friends bought there's used for around $20 at a sports store. I got lucky, and found a catchers helmet that fits perfectly, brand new, for $30.

You may also want to invest in some knee pads. Especially if you bruise easily, or have weak knees. I found a pair of hockey/catchers lower leg guards at a thrift store for $1.50! What a deal. I can not even feal shot's to the leg at all. But you can sure hear them! Not surprisingly, these are almost exactly like plastic versions of real grieves.

That being said, the only other thing I can tell you is, if you have steel toed boots or shoes, wear them.

There is such a thing as to much armour. It shouldn't slow you down. If it does, lose some of it. I don't mean sapr with no armour, but don't wear armour that is unnecisary. You should also never begin to feal invinsible. This will lead to bad habits, that could get you hurt later. Remember, ANY hit is one that could severly damage you in a real fight. And along those same lines, others shouldn't see you as invincible, or harder to hurt, with armour on. If they don't use the same amout of caution, and begin hitting harder, start losing armour. Sparring can be very dangerous if people are careless!

I hope I have helped a bit here. Good luck, and with a little scrounging, you should find some suitable items! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
"Fencing with a sword is nothing other than discipline...."

Joachim Myere 1570

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Brian Hunt
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Re: Training equipment question

Postby Brian Hunt » Sun May 14, 2006 8:58 pm

Hi Jeremy,

the amount of armour worn is up to the user, there are no set rules reguarding what you should and should not wear. This is left up to what the individual feels that they need.

If you get a fencing helmet be sure to get a 3 weapon mask the higher the newtons of force the sturdier the mask. For padded weapons sparring I would also reccomend a cup as well as a helm of some kind. I wouldn't reccomend gloves as they can change the feel you have for your sword. For waster or blunt sparring I will add forearm pads and elbow pads, along with one of my full coverage helmets. I am actually thinking of a light padded Jack with a set of Jack chains for sparring with wasters and blunts as a precautinary measure. I am also playing around with the idea of some hard plastic/leather guantlets.

Just some additional thoughts on this.

Brian Hunt
GFS
Tuus matar hamsterius est, et tuus pater buca sabucorum fundor!

http://www.paulushectormair.com
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JeanryChandler
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Re: Training equipment question

Postby JeanryChandler » Mon May 15, 2006 1:15 am

Hi Jeremy

I just use a Lacrosse Helmet (you can get them on Ebay for $10-$15) and some padded gloves. You can get padded gloves on Ebay as well for aroudn the same amount of money, or you can carefully pad up some regular work gloves using foam and duct tape.

JR
"We can't all be saints"
John Dillinger

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Josh Welsh
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Re: Training equipment question

Postby Josh Welsh » Mon May 15, 2006 5:48 am

Oh how could I have forgotten THE MOST important item? The cup! LOL, guess I'm so used to the idea of needing one, I forgot to mention it. Yes, please wear one, you future family will thank you, lol!

I guess I have just gotten used to wearing gloves. I wear them whenever I practice, so it's like second nature.

I've never found the need for forearm guards. I've never taken a shot to the forearms. Perhaps it's just my sparring style. I suppose the forearms could be more vulnurible when fighting with/against arming swords or daggers.
"Fencing with a sword is nothing other than discipline...."



Joachim Myere 1570

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Allen Johnson
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Re: Training equipment question

Postby Allen Johnson » Mon May 15, 2006 6:15 am

We must be on a similar wavelegnth Brian, cause I have been thinking the exact same thing with the padded jack and jack chains. What type of jack were you looking at getting? Unless you make yours of course. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry

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Brian Hunt
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Re: Training equipment question

Postby Brian Hunt » Mon May 15, 2006 12:37 pm

Hi Allen,

you know me well. Yeah, I am making mine. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> It will have an outer shell of red linen, and inner shell of red cotton canvas and two to three layers of 100 percent cotton batting (no polyesters allowed). Natural materials are a must or you will seriously overheat. It will have a very deep shoulder seam (withing 3-4 inches of the middle of my chest) to allow easy movement throughout the shoulder area. If I could afford to do so, I would make it out of 15 - 30 layers of linen with an outer shell of deer hide that would be hand tied/quilted.

As for the Jack chains they are a result of a waster strike I took on my forearm bone just in front of the elbow and just above the padding on my forearm that stopped my ability to swing a sword for 4 weeks. This is the second time in my training that a powerful chop to my forearm made it hard to use my right arm for a few weeks. So I am making a set from ABS plastic for bloss fechten techniques and I will make a set out of steel just for fun.

As for a purchased Jack, I would look at historic enterprises, the clothing departement of chivalry bookshelf, and there are a couple of really great places in Europe for jacks and gambesons whose names escape me at the moment, but I think one of them may be called Matuls.

One other thought on protection. The throat is a very vunerable target, my mask has a built in gorget that protects this area very effectivly, but you do not get this type of protection from a hocky mask. If you wear a hocky mask you may want to invest in a gorget for sparring with wasters and blunts. Fencing masks have a built in padding that acts as a gorget but do not protect as well as a solid plate gorget does.

Brian Hunt
GFS
Tuus matar hamsterius est, et tuus pater buca sabucorum fundor!



http://www.paulushectormair.com

http://www.emerytelcom.net/users/blhunt/sales.htm

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Allen Johnson
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Re: Training equipment question

Postby Allen Johnson » Mon May 15, 2006 2:00 pm

Yeah- thats the guy Ive been looking at. Hes got both good looking jacks and the chains there:
http://www.matuls.pl/english/english.html
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry

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JeremyDillon
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Re: Training equipment question

Postby JeremyDillon » Mon May 15, 2006 5:02 pm

Thanks a lot for the help. everyone, we've been using three weapon masks ever since we started practice, but I'll be sure to look up your other suggestions. I'm interested in the prospect of purchasing a jack or gambeson, however. What manufacturers do you recomend? An actual site address would be wonderful.

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Craig Peters
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Re: Training equipment question

Postby Craig Peters » Mon May 15, 2006 5:21 pm

Revival Clothing.com has good quality gambesons. However, you're going to pay for the quality, since their gambesons are $339.95. As I understand though, a gambeson is the sort of thing where you want to take the initial monetary hit and have a good quality item that will last for years, rather than having a substandard gambeson that restricts arm movement, (definitely not good for sword work), doesn't hold together that well from machine washing, and doesn't breathe well in summer time due to polyester fill or something like that.

http://www.revivalclothing.com/

Also, as has been pointed out by JC, the vast majority of manuals don't depict men fighting with gloves, (excluding gauntlets for harnischfechten), so it might be an idea to try practicing without them. An important part about developing control during sparring is being able to spar without causing serious injury to your partner's hands, and gloves can be a crutch that hinders your development in this regard.

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JeremyDillon
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Re: Training equipment question

Postby JeremyDillon » Mon May 15, 2006 7:37 pm

Thank you very much for the help, I think I'll save up and buy a good quality gambeson, probobly the one from the site you listed. Having never worn a gambeson before, I am led to question, however, how effective the garments are at padding blows. If you have experience with using them in free-play, I'd love any feedback you have. I don't want to spend 300 smackers on something that may or may not be just fancy clothes that do little to pad against hits.

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Brian Hunt
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Re: Training equipment question

Postby Brian Hunt » Mon May 15, 2006 10:44 pm

Gambesons are basiclly built alot like a quilt. They will help take the sting out, but won't stop a blow (they can be rather difficult to cut thorugh though). A Jack is more padded than a gambeson since it is meant to be armour in and of itself and not worn under a harness. By the 15th century gambesons started to be less padded and started to evolve into arming doublets for closer fitting armour than chain mail with plate over top of it. Then to make things more fun, there is a debate over whether or not jacks and gambesons were quilted or were made of sewn tubes that were stuffed. The stuffed version can stop a harder impact than the quilted version, but there is not much protection inbetween the stuffed tubes and would allow a thrust to go through much, much easier than say 30 layers of heavy linen quilted into a Jack would.

Anyway, here is a basic pattern how to from the internet. The basic t-tunic styling of this pattern is wrong, but it will give you an idea of basic construction. This may help you decide if you want to spend money on a commercial product, or just go with football pads. http://68.149.34.237/gambeson_instructions.pdf

If your truly interested in doing it yourself, I can point you to much better historical data for how they should be made.

laters.

Brian Hunt
GFS
Tuus matar hamsterius est, et tuus pater buca sabucorum fundor!



http://www.paulushectormair.com

http://www.emerytelcom.net/users/blhunt/sales.htm

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M Wallgren
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Re: Training equipment question

Postby M Wallgren » Mon May 15, 2006 11:50 pm

One thing I have thought of is knuckleprotection when we sparr in all weapons and it ends in ringen am swerde/degen/messer. The mesch of the fencingmasks has a tendency to scratch or seriously harm the hand if one hit a more glancing strike against the face of your opponent. How has you guys solved this. My graplinggloves aren´t that good for this. You can use them but you loose some of the feeling and control with them.

Martin
Martin Wallgren,
ARMA Östersund, Sweden, Studygroup Leader.

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Craig Peters
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Re: Training equipment question

Postby Craig Peters » Tue May 16, 2006 6:16 pm

Try using hockey masks. I haven't had any problems with them.

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TJ Ulrich
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Re: Training equipment question

Postby TJ Ulrich » Tue May 16, 2006 7:03 pm

For gloves the best option that I have found are field hockey gloves ... NOT hockey gloves. Standard hockey gloves are too bulky and as a result make using two hands on an accurately sized hand and a half sword difficult and uncomfortable. Also they are WAY too padded. The guys that I spar with that use them often completely ignore direct solid hits to the hands simply because they don't feel them, or misinterpret them as a flat glancing blow. Field hockey gloves are much smaller, have a mesh palm, are articulated and studded with small pads all along the back of the hand and fingers. They don't inhibit grappling, fitting two hands on a hand and a half sword, or overly protect to the point of ignoring hand strikes. They don't come up over the wrist either, which is good or bad depending on your POV. I like the fact that they allow me to feel and function as if I weren't wearing gloves. Google for "STX field hockey gloves" and realize that they run a little small so if in doubt get the bigger size.


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