Staff question

[Jaron Bernstein]

I am currently working through Meyer's staff chapter and am noticing a lot of one handed very powerful sling cuts (with colorful names like the brain blow!). I have tried some of these with slow walk throughs in our study group, at full speed in the air, smashed some pumpkins, and on my pell (1 broken staff, pell still intact so far). It is an incredibly powerful hit, but it seems to leave you vulnerable, even with Meyer's caveat to knock his point off line first.

This brings me to Stacy Clifford's Swetnam lesson in Texas about almost never striking a blow and always keeping your point on line. If I understand correctly, the few blows in Swetnam are fairly tight ones.

Considering that both Swetnam and Meyer knew a lot more about the staff than I ever will this is a problem when they seem to contradict each other so clearly.

My question is directed mainly to anyone who has done full speed staff sparring (the Florida guys come to mind but anyone who can answer with some authority please speak up):

How vulnerable to thrusts do those big one handed slinging hits leave you?

[Jake_Norwood]

Jaron,

They've always left me rather open, but that's because I pull the blow, knowing that if I don't the other guy's head will explode (see Dave Welch's posts about two years ago about the damage that one of those can do to a target).

Just my 1.5 cents.

Jake

[david welch]

Here it is, but I am still not sure about the math part. just the part about not wanting to get hit by one. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.thearma.org//forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=openresearch&amp;Number=7737&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1

[Jaron Bernstein]

I don't doubt the power at all. It does much damage to pumpkins as well and broke one of my staves. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am just wondering why Meyer would show something that would leave you open to a thrust before the thing can land. Not having actually sparred with staves yet (still need to make some padded staves for that), I am more trying to get a sense of how viable a strike it is.

[david welch]

I see them as finishing moves. I think you should use them after you have softened them up with something like a thrust to the head, or maybe even if you have been able to beat them off point by a lot like when you smack their staff into the ground. But I certainly wouldn't do it if I thought they were ready to counter quickly and they had their "point" aimed at me.

[Brian Hunt]

They do not have to be a finishing move, this is one of those moves that requires timing and range to pull it off. The advantage of it is it is fast and powerful and can out reach a two handed thrust. Paulus Hector Mair has these in his staff section and shows how to throw them, and how to block them. The way to block them is to catch the blow between your hands on your staff, but be sure to have the lower end firmly seated against the ground with your arms extended into the block or the strike may blow through your block. The strike is a commited strike and it is done with the hand that is that is holding the rear point or end of the staff. I can throw them from either a vom tag type position or a tail position. When you throw one with speed and power the air will vibrate like a giant bumble bee from the speed of the staff cutting through the air. It may be done with either a passing step or a simple step. Play with it, when your time and range are correct your opponent cannot ignore them with impunity and must either block them or step back out of range. If they successfully block it, then things can get interesting really quickly from there. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

By the way, make yourself some padded staffs and you can bout and near full speed and power.

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt

ARMA member
GFS

www.paulushectormair.com

[Mike Cartier]

I don't think the Brain Blow is one handed, if its the one I am remembering from the Staff chapter. Its a thrust followed by a hard Scheitelhau down the centerline.

As i recall the slinging strikes usually end up with both hands on the staff after the sling, maybe I am thinking of something else.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Mike <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

This is from the Forgeng translation, page 254.
Brain Blow (hirnschlag)

"Do it thus: In the Onset, bind him with the foible of his staff on your foible; the act as if you were looking earnestly to see where or how you might thrust at his face. As soon as he sees this, then he will diligently watch for your going away, so that as soon as you go away, he can quickly counterthrust; therefore when you earnestly as if you intended to thrust, then rapidly jerk up with the butt, and with your left hand swing the staff back toward your left around your head, and strike thus with one hand unexpectedly straight from above at his head. And even if he should thrust in the mean time, this will not work for him, since you will be too swift for him with the stroke on his head...."

The next device after this is called a Crest blow (schofferschlag) in which you do keep both hands on the stave.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jaron

I think you are looking at this from the wrong angle, don't think about him hitting you, think about how you can get him to defend himself.

...And even if he should thrust in the mean time, this will not work for him, since you will be too swift for him with the stroke on his head...."

The fighting manuel's are written from the perspective that One person attack's and the other person will, must, has to defend themselve's, if you look at this he is saying that when you knock his staff he will now have to recover control before he can thrust and your blow is already on it's way and he will have to either let you hit him in the head in order for him to thrust or defend his head "..since he must defend or allow himself to be hit if he is to have a chance to strike a blow himself."(Doebringer) and his thrust will not do nearly as much damage to you as you will hitting him in the head, remember these are percussion weapon's not cutting.


Jeff

[TimSheetz]

Hi Guys,

In the situation described, if this technique is being used on you I think closing to mitigate the force is the best option... conversely, as the one executing the blow, maintain range by your footwork so the blow lands home will be your most important element.

I like the staff/spear, and think this sounds quite difficult to spar with safely... but is worth trying once the participants have some skill/expereince and ensure no one loses brain cells.

Peace,

Tim,

ARMA Pisa.

[Mike Cartier]

Ahh yes i remember this one now, as i recall it stinks in sparring, anything one handed is very vulnerable as well as difficult to bring back online for defense or counter attack.
I think what i do with this brain blow is use two hands instead but still do the primary movement with the left hand as instructed. By still using my left hand i can control it enough to make the blow not leave me too open.

I htink the essential concept with the brain blow is the Changing handwork seen in so much of Meyers stuff. When taken at prinsiple rather than literally, it can be adapted.

My exprience with the staff fighting is that strikes leave you vulnerable to the thrust. But the thrust is vulnerable to be displaced, this displacement can also be a strike though so generalizations might not be appropriate.

Striking seems to work best as a counter using the fight part of Abzug (withdrawal), thrusting is best for offense and for displacing and countering.