Concussive Force: Swords against Helmets

[Carl Scholer]

Hi, I am student who is aspiring to be a historian and a fan of medieval literature and I have a question for you all. In all my readings of medieval epics I have noticed that striking the helmet of an opposing knight to stun him is a remarkably consistent tactic in all the knightly duels and battles of medieval literature. This is true not only of literature written by those who were simply writers and poets but also by those who were in actuality knights themselves, most notably Sir Thomas Malory, an Englishman, who wrote Le Morte d’ Arthur in the 15th century and Wolfram Von Eshenbach, a German, who wrote Parzival in the 13th century. There is one particular bout in Parzival where Parzival’s strategy of striking blows is contrasted against an opponent who is attempting a wrestling oriented strategy. Again, what grabs my attention is the consistency of the approach no matter the writer: first, blows are always aimed for the helmet, second, the purpose of the blows is consistently, when stated, to stun the opponent, and third, the battle almost always ends with one knight or the other striking a blow which stuns his opponent long enough for him to unlace and tear off the helmet of his adversary and either demand a surrender or lob off his head.

However when it comes down to it my question is this: is the concussive force of a sword blow delivered with full intent and force sufficient to stun or otherwise daze an opponent through his helmet. Specifically I am thinking of the swords and helmets typically used by knights during the 13th and 15th centuries respectfully. Was this approach simply a literary convention or was their some factual legitimacy behind the tactic?

I would appreciate any input or comments on the subject. Thank you.

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

You should always keep in mind than we people are all the same: a writer in the Medieval times can be just as wrong with his statements than is any writer today.
My answer is, that it is legitim. It could work. What I don't understand is, why one would do that, for there are much better tactics in my knowledge than simply bashing the helmet of the other.
If the enemy wears a padded undercap, and a helmet which has leather holder for the head, one must understand that there is at least an inch between the head and the outside of the helmet. Still, a mighty blow is definetelly a stunning experience. Not a mortal one, or mostly not a mortal one.

We are fighting against the common belief of knights simply bashing each other in a fight - But if I think of this guy: http://www.sword.sg18.net/gallery/G11/images/01.jpg (the ones in the back are NOT us, he was a special guest at that event), who is one of the most ferocius fighters I've ever known, Dave Rowlings included, I would certainly need to use any kinds of action - including bashing him unconcious if I have the time - to get out alive. From a real fight, I mean.

But I guess it depends. If you had the opportunity to watch two educated knightly fencers fight in the medieval times, it would certainly not be the same than some countryside small tournament where any errant or whatever can take part.

greets,

Szab

[Allen Johnson]

I'd say that it 'can' but is usually not the first option. Look at boxing. Those gloves are pretty thick and padded, yet knock outs are a common occurence. I think that even with a steel helmet and probably some sort of padding, the ammount of force generated by a sword blow is enough to make people see stars. However, the armor still must be bypassed in order to win (assuming you are working for a kill). Just battering someones armor isnt as effective as working for their unarmoured parts.

[Will Adamson]

I understand this is a modern comparison, but hear me out.

Having plenty of experience in taking 70+mph slapshots to the face, I can tell you that many times it actually makes not much difference. Now, having said that, it can lead to a split second advantage, which is all you really need sometimes. When I've been hit like that in a game I'm all hyped up on adrenaline and really focused. The puck will hit me and I'm not thinking about the pain till the ref blows the whistle. Even then I often don't fully realize how much my head hurts till play is at the other end of the ice.

Now, I understand that a small vulcanized rubber hockey puck against a polymer composite and steel wire goalie mask is not the same as a steel sword against a steel helm with arming cap. But when it comes to modern examples, I think that is as close as many of us are going to get. Baseball hits are a similar situation, but I don't think you get the same reaction there because the play is dead upon the impact. Hockey doesn't stop for getting hit in the face, at least for goalies.

Taking a hit like that may indeed open up immediate attack possibilities like I said before. But I think the real advantage might be in the opponent being stunned after the action has died down a bit. Also, factor in things like previous concussions. If you've had one before, you're more prone to them in the future like Eric Lindros. An armored fighter who had taken a few of these types of blows might go down like a sack of potatoes.

Poke around in the videos section of the ARMA site for some examples of damage to the helmets themselves from swords and other weapons. Someone with more experience might be able to give you some more direct first hand knowledge. I'm new to this as well.

[JeanryChandler]

Yeah i don't know about that. One of the guys I used to spar with used a Medieval barbutte helmet about 2.5 mm thick mild steel, with an arming cap underneath. The training swords we used were a bit heavier than the real thing, enoguh to knock an unhelmeted man out but he never had any problem even from the hardest blows. He didn't seem to even notice them.

Sharp swords (as opposed to blunts) are lighter than most folks imagine and so narrow in cross section that they aren't nearly as effective bludgeons as one might guess from handling blunts. And helmets, like most metal armor, were far more effective than most people realise as well.

I would say it would probably depend on the weapon though. A fairly delicate tapering bastard sword may not do the trick, wheras a heavy estoc might be stout enough.

For dealing with a guy in full harness though I'd think one would rather use a more specialized weapon such as a poll-axe, war-hammer, pick, mace etc. etc...

JR

Edit:

P.S. In the 12th -13th centuries it wasn't unsual to wear a great helmet, a mail coif, a padded arming cap, and another steel skull cap underneath that!

[s_taillebois]

M. Scholer,
In your sources, is there any reference to the name(s) of the blows used? That might be an indication. From the half ward (half swording), it wasn't unknown to aim for the slits in the visor. Or turning the weapon around and striking with the pommel. Can't say about wheel pommels, but a scent bottle pommel can concentrate quite a sizeable force when used in such a manner.
Also, I'd wonder about the effects of the angle of the blow, and the type of helmet. An oblique, and forceful, blow might be more effective than a direct blow, insofar as it would torque the neck. (Perhaps since the discussion started with helmets, we;ve fixated a bit on strict effects to the skull.)
Also by Malory's time, the estoc was in use. And that, perhaps, could be used to pummel a helmet effectively with the blade itself. (not sure as I don't own one...yet)
Also, could be, simply literary license. The medieval/Renn equivalent of the never missing, never empty... six shooter.

[Stacy Clifford]

In halfswording, the mortschlag is where you turn the sword completely around and use the cross like a sledgehammer/pickaxe with the blade as the handle. I would expect that to be a pretty effective way to ring someone's bell. Ask Shane and Matt, the Virginia Beach Armored Think Tank. I'm sure they can describe the effects in better detail.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I do not own a kit of 15th Century Gothic armour (doh! - you lucky armoured guys). But someone who does, and practices in that, is David Lindholm, and in his book about Ringeck longsword bloszfechen, he did go ahead and include a short section on armoured harnischfechten as an appendix, where he states that against a striking (aka cutting) attack, presumably to head, "at worst you will hear church bells". So I think he was emphasising its great protection yet acknowledging you could get something of a stun as well.

[Matthew_Anderson]

Yep, if delivered properly, a good mortschlag to the helm could probably knock out or even kill an opponent, hence the name, "murder stroke". From my own personal experience, even a controlled force/speed blow of this type really gets your attention. I've also got several nice creases in my helm from Shane's sword and a really nice round dent from a shot that hit me with the end of the cross. It felt like getting hit on the head with a sledge hammer. I dropped to my knees and we both just said "wow". With all that said however, simply bashing away at armour is not a very effective way to fight an armoured man although a hard blow to the head can be a "bell ringer" Of course, an edge blow could be used to set up another type of attack such as thrusting from the half-sword or grappling and bringing a dagger into use. I think it's significant that all the armoured fighting sources I have studied deal with how to counter edge blows but NONE of them advocates or even shows the use of them.

[Carl Scholer]

Wow, I love all the responses so far, very insightful. From what I can gather it seams that, while not impossible, it would take an exceptionally strong edge blow to stun a person through his helmet. I watched the test cutting videos on the site and was surprised at the extent to which the helmets bent, dented, and creased in response to the sword blows. Still, in all the 15th century manuals I have read through on this site and others, and based on your comments here, it looks like grappling and thrusting were strongly recommended over blows in armoured fighting.

I should add that in the epics blows seam to rarely knock out the opposing knight outright. I can only think of one example off of the top of my head in Le Morte D’Arthur where a knight was knocked out by a sword blow in a battle on horseback and promptly fell into stream where he drowned. In most cases the opposing knight seems to be either knocked off his feet, or off his horse, and is sometimes momentarily dazed. The blow is almost never used to defeat an opponent outright but instead used to knock him to his knees or on the ground so that the opposing knight can execute a grapple.

Unfortunately in all the examples I have read the “murder stroke” does not appear to be implied in any of the sources. In nearly every case the knights are fighting each other with swords and shields. However I can’t derive the source words to be sure because the novels I owne dealing with these battles are pretty heavily translated. I could do some hunting on line to get some un-translated sources though.

I don’t want to drown the post in quotes but I thought these examples might help illuminate the specifics of the combats. I apologize in advance if this is too much.

This is from the German Ritter Eschenbach in Parzival,

“Their shields were so far gone that each left his lying where it was and made haste to engage without them – both came on at once, ready to give an account of themselves like stouthearted men… Their swords and helmets suffered severely, since these were their shields for warding off death….

The tactic of the charming young Lischois Gwelljus was this: his lofty heart inspired him to bold, courageous deeds with many a swift sword-stroke – time and time again did he leap away from Gawan and return to press his attack. Gawan’s constant purpose was thus, ‘If I can hug you close to me,’ he thought, ‘I shall pay you back in full.’ You could see flashes of fire there, and again and again swords raised on high by valiant hands. They were now maneuvering each other to the side, to the fore and behind… Then my lord Gawan seized him and threw him by sheer strength beneath himself. – May I be spared such loving embraces, they would prove too much for me!

Gawan demanded his surrender…”

“Over the expanse of that meadow while their helmets were jangled by keen swords biting deep… The whole army marched out to where they heard the sound of sword-play, the crackle of sparks hewn from helmets, and mighty blows being driven home… Time and time again those stalwarts tossed their swords to change the edge.”

“The Infidel threw his sword high up, a rain of blows forced Parzival to his knees… They swung their arms with expertise, fiery flashes leapt from their helmets and a bitter wind rose from their swords… The stout sword of Gaheviez was shattered by a blow on the Infidel’s helmet which brought the bold and mighty stranger to his knees.”

…and this is from the English Knight Thomas Malory in the death of Arthur writting in the 15th century.

“…drawing swords, [they] chopped at each other with heavy, deliberate blows, beneath which one or the other would occasionally stagger…
Beneath the steady rain of blows their shields were chipped and their armor and mail had given way in many places; and Sir Gareth soon learned, to his cost, to defend them from the shrewd blows of his opponent. Several times one or the other fell to the ground, half stunned by a blow, whereon the other would leap on top of him; and more than once in the ensuing scuffle they exchanges swords.
….with two skill full sword blows the Red Knight first knocked the sword from Sir Garath’s hand and then sent him spinning to the ground. Leaping on top of him the Red Knight unlacing his helmet…
Sir Gareth responded with a tremendous thrust of his body and succeeded in overturning his opponent, then, reaching swiftly for his sword, confronted him once more… Then it was Sir Gareth who sent his opponents sword flying from his hand, and following it up with a hail of blows on the helmet, knocking him senseless to the ground, where he sprang on top of him. He had just unlaced his helmet to behead him when the Red Knight cried aloud:
“Most noble Knight I beg you for mercy!””

There is a fair amount of dramatic license being used with fiery sparks being drawn from each blow and mail being chipped and torn with sword blows. It also seems that the equipment used by the knights in Le Morte d’ Arthur is not contemporary to Malory’s own time period. He has knights fighting with sword and shield and wearing mail in an era when knights had largely phased out mail and large wooden shields as part of their battle dress. But I still suspect there is some kernel of truth behind this sword on helmet action in these epics because of their apprent agreement with other pictorial and historic sources. Still I have to admit that this could all be an ingrained dramatic convention in medieval fictions and histories.

[Matthew_Anderson]

It's often difficult to reconcile the epic accounts of combat in literature with what we know of medieval and renaissance techniques from fechtbuchs. Certainly, there was a big difference between judicial combat and wars and tournament fighting, where the object is to show prowess and conducted with less lethal weapons and techniques. Also, the accounts of epic combats between nobles were generally not written by anyone who was there but by some priest or monk later on, certainly with much embelishment in order to bring honor and glory to the nobles being written about. Just look at the Maciejowski bible for example, with it's images of helmets and mail being cut by single hand sword blows. All modern testing would indicate that this is virtually impossible. Although I find literature and iconogrophy of the period interesting and relevant in its own way, I am much more confident using the fechtbuchs as sources for reconstructing the actual fighting techniques and experimentation with accurate replica weapons and armor is a more realistic way to determine what works and doesn't IMO.

[John_Clements]

Matt, keep in mind not all maile (or plate) armor was uniform in metalurgy, quality, or weave. So it is posisble that some forms could be cut through by certain sword blows, if not just rent and torn by them.

Accounts of combat in the chansons had to be based in reality somewhat, but they are also often "idealized" and the characters almost superheroes. They were the pop culture action movies of the day, in a sense.

JC

[Shane Smith]

A good shot to the helm will certainly ring your bell and may well open you up for an entering maneuver with the point from the halfsword.

[Matthew_Anderson]

John said: "Matt, keep in mind not all maile (or plate) armor was uniform in metalurgy, quality, or weave. So it is posisble that some forms could be cut through by certain sword blows, if not just rent and torn by them".

Well, yes, there are almost certainly some differences, perhaps very significant differences, in not only the metal, but the construction of the replicas we are using. This may throw our experiments off somewhat. The other thing that's kind of puzzling about the Mac Bible is that in every other respect the images seem very realistic. The armour and weapons mostly look "right" for the period, and everything seems to be drawn with a lot of good, accurate detail. And of course, we can't hope to be as good at using these weapons as men who trained their whole lives from an early age and knew they would be called upon to use them in real, life or death struggles. I still think there is some unrealistic embelishment there though. I mean, there are images of maille-clad men literally being split from helmet to belly button. Remembert that this is a book of old testament bible stories about heroic figures like David vs. Goliath and such. I think sometimes artists showed cleaving of armour and blood spattering to show that a devastating blow is being delivered. If they just showed a weapon impacting a helmet and denting it a little, although in reality, this could cause a devastating injury to the man, it wouldn't look that way, especially to someone unfamiliar with fighting.

[s_taillebois]

Another factor is that it may have been an indirect expression of some of the fears/anxieties of the period. Much of the writing first alluded to, was written when plate was fully developed, as were war hammers and such...
The battlefield medicine of the time could handle slashes well enough...even including their appalling treatments using suturing irons.
But to have a helm (like a Bascinet and etc) crushed, presented some major problems for them. If the usual attachments & releases were unusable....They could cut through the mangled plate...eventually. But one could also be blinded or choke on ones own blood before they succeded. And excepting some trepanning, from what I've read, they could do little about head injuries. And even if the trepanning went well, the chances of infection and accordingly insanity was pretty high.
Insane and infected, not a appealing alternative. Even deep puncture wounds from such as an estoc or bastard sword, might have been preferable. One still was likely to die, but in a less insane manner.