Sword and shield guards

[JeanryChandler]

Can anyone direct me to somewhere on the web where I can find some basic sword and shield guards depicted clearly in some image(s) (sword and buckler would be ok but larger shields would be better)

I've been asked to help some re-enactment people improve their game a little bit but I all the sword and shield stuff I know is from the old pre-fechtbuch days and is probably completely a-historical.

Spear guards would be helpful too.

JR

[Matthew_Anderson]

I don't know a good online reference, but a book called "Medieval Swordsmanship" by a guy called John Clements has a very good sword and shield section. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> Seriously though, this is still one of the best, most practical introductions to fighting with large shields available IMO.

[JeanryChandler]

I know, I have personally pitched a little silver into John's retirement fund by buying three copies of that book over the years, partly for it's easy accessibility for people new to WMA, and partly for the sword and shield stuff (which though a bit dated is still one of the more complete overviews of sword and large shield around).

Two copies were given away to friends and another was ruined in Katrina. I just ordered a fourth from Amazon but it has not arrived in time.

So it's basically whatever I can find in the next few hours online plus whatever I can remember from Johns book and my own stickfighting background.

J

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Jeanry,

it might help if I knew if we were discussing a center held shield or a strapped heater type shield. However, Casper Bradack has written a nice article on using the sword and shield that may be found here. http://www.arma-ogden.org/content/view/9/30/

Basicly, the way I currently see it (subject to revival as I experiment and read), there are two primary ways to hold your shield, "open" or "closed." "Open" is what I use for a 1 on 1 fight (though I will close it to cut off a line of attack as the fight warrents), I use the "closed" position for shield wall type stuff and will "open" up when the lines close.



The fighter on the right is standing in a position that I would call "closed" with his shield, the fighter on the left would be hard to determine due to his twisted torso.



The fighter on the right with the oval shield is in a position that I would term "open."



The fighter in the center of this image with the orange shield is the "closed" position.

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManuals/DiGrassi/03001085.jpg From Digrassi, a good image of what I would consider to be a "open" position with the shield.

Be sure to look at your 16th century Italian Rotella manuals, Digrassi, Morrazo, Capo Ferro, etc.

Some have argued for a 3rd shield position where the shield is on the right side of the body with the edge towards the opponent, It may be seen in some period illustrations, and is used with the large duelling shields. I feel that the period illustrations are done that way in order to show the coat of arms rather than a shield position and that duelling shields are an entity unto themselves. My current opinion is that if it is used, it would be best done with a center held shield (such as a duelling shield or a viking round) rather than a heater. I personally do not use this guard since I do not like being that crossed up with a large shield. Also, it may be a temporary transition to be used as a displacement with a dueling shield to try and create and exploit a new opening. My opinion on this is still in a transitory state.

An possible image of this 3rd guard may be found here http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/SoloT/0021.jpg The person on the right apears to have lost the fight while in the middle of this position to the person on the left who appears to be in the "open" position.

I find the sword positions of the 7 basic guards of the MS.I33 work fairly well with a large shield as well as a buckler. So do the binds, strikes and thrusts of the MS.I33. The larger the shield, the slower it will be, remeber that it may be faster to step around your shield than to move your shield, and that a shield is the largest knuckle duster I have ever used.

Good luck.

Brian Hunt.
GFS

[William Savage]

I know its not internet but I thought it was maybe worth mentioning. I have a copy of Medieval sword and shield, the combat system of Royal Armouries MS 1.33. By Paul Wagner &amp; Stephen Hand. and i like it a lot, not at all as a replacement to JCs Med. swordsmanship but just as an acurate interpretation of MS 1.33.

Hope it helps someone.

[Randall Pleasant]

William

I personally consider <u>Medieval Sword And Shield</u> to be an extremely poor interpretation of MS I.33. Although I have a copy of of the book I almost never open it and absolutely never train out of it. Basically I believe the stuff in that book would get you killed in a real fight. I would highly suggest two things: First, get a copy of <u>The Medieval Art of Swordsmanship</u> by Jeffrey Forgeng (also from The Chivalry Bookshelf) and read I.33 for yourself and see what you come up with using good sound martial thinking. Second, at the first possible chance attend an I.33 class by ARMA Senior Free Scholar Stewart Feil. There is night &amp; day between the I.33 interpretation you have been working with and the I.33 interpretation by Stewart Feil.

[Shane Smith]

I'm with Ran,

Stew Feil and Brian Hunt are doing some good stuff with I-33. I'm a competent sword and buckler guy and Stew completely dominated me in some recent bouting with that weapon combo. Stew can tell you how to do it in a superior manner and then do it. That is a sure way to earn my respect.

[JeanryChandler]

Thanks for all the responses. The litle event went pretty well. I don't really know the I.33 stuff so I just kept it simple and stuck to what I knew. Taught them 5 basic longsword guards, 4 strikes, and a couple of displacements and counters. Then we moved to the spear, showed them how to transition from a defensive to offensive guard and do a slip-thrust, and finally just a little on the shield, mainly how to do the longsword guards with the single sword, to keep the shield low and not telegraph, not cross the weapon in front of their shield etc..

Hopefully they learned something and will defeat their rival re-enactment group at their next encounter <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

JR

[Jeffrey Hull]

I agree with Randall. The Forgeng book lets you figure it out on your own, presenting the lean &amp; mean facsimile and translation, bereft of any specious interpretation via Hand.

Erstwhile I have advised similar to friends and was happy to find RP thought likewise.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Good for you Jeanry! Have fun...

[William Savage]

Oops, thanks for the heads up, I was planning to get more hevily into sword &amp; shield this summer, so maybe ill get a new book. So I guess im glad i mentioned it, for my own sake.

PS is it a poor interpretation because they imitate the illustrations too literally?

[JeffGentry]

Hey Will

I have been going through Stephan Hands book this past week(caveat i'm not a S&amp;B guy)and have seen some of Stews class on I33 and read some of the translation from Freywild and i found Stephans book a little disconcerting for some reason, I think it is because like you said they seem to use such a precise interpretation of I33, and from what i have read of I33 and my 3 year's with the longsword it seem's like S&amp;B should be much more dynamic and aggressive.

I just do not get that feeling reading Stephan's book, even the original when translated read's in a diffrent way.

Just my 2 cent's.

Jeff

[Brian Hunt]

Hi all,

The I.33 is very aggresive and dynamic, the footwork is fast and fluid, it employs a variety of strikes (both short and long edge), binds, counters, etc. It is an amazing document and the fact that it survived the ravages of time are even more amazing. The teachings in the pages of the I.33 are well done and are fairly easy to follow, but the drawings make it hard to be sure of the footwork and which foot is forward or in back. The distance between the figures rarely changes during the course of the fight except when they come to the wrestling ranges. If you want to know what I and Stewart have come up with for the reason the way the distance is shown, you will have to come to one of our classes or wait for us to possibly publish something.

I hesitate to critique Stephan Hand's interpretation, it takes a lot of guts to publish an interpretation and he has also published some changes to the interpretation in his book. I will say that there are areas where Stewart and myself disagree with his analysis, and I am sure that Stephan Hand may disagree with us. That is all part of the nature of an intepretation. They also change as ones understanding grows and develops.

laters.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[JeanryChandler]

Are there any other books on I.33 extant? How about interpretations on the web? I'd like to just see some kind of basic overview, the fundamental guards etc., but I don't really trust my own ability to directly interpret the original source on this. I've always doen much better with interpreted sources.

JR

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Jeanry,

there are no other interpretations commercially availible that I know of. Boars tooth has some stuff on their site http://www.boarstooth.org/research/ ; John Jordan over in Denver (aka Jester in the SCA) has some of his research up on the web though I can't remember the url right now.

The I.33 has seven basic wards labeled one through seven. It has several counter wards that are used against the wards (half-shield, krucke, fiddle-bow, walpurgis's ward, etc.). It is based upon four binds two above on the left and the right, and two below on the left and the right. It has several signature moves (the thrust-strike, the shield-strike, the nucken, seizing of the sword and shield, etc.)

I will see what I can do to write up some of the basics on the I.33 later this week after I talk to Stewart about what we are willing to post to the public forum. After all, he and I have been working on this manuscript for over a couple of years now.

reguards,

Brian Hunt
GFS