Concussive Force: Swords against Helmets

[philippewillaume]

I think the type of helmet will make the difference.
For example a sallet or barbute will give a better chance for the attacker to give the helmet wearer a concussion (and it is easier to whiplash the head as well)
An armet with wrapper a great helm (with a bassinet under) or a great bassinet will make the knock out much much less likely.
But a 15th century helmet that fit and is appropriately padded will reduce the knock out chance greatly any way.

About the murderstike (the halfswording one, not the wretling ones). Ringeck tells us to do it to the hands and the knee. And from what I understand he says he does not seem to hold it in great value. (but Talhoffer seems to like it a lot).

Cutting through mail has always puzzled me, from what I have been able to gather. It seems that mail was not harden/quenched before the 13th century.
I think it is possible to cut through a mild steel riveted mail even possibly mild steel helm, with an AT 1515 I have cut nails holding the cabbage from horse back (no damage to the sword nor what it especially difficult)

Up to the 13th century, high quality blades were not that common. The 13th century seems to be the time where good quality sword seems to become more available.
I am relatively confident that blade like the Sutton hoo blade would be able to do the same as the AT but more common blade like the low end “Viking” sword would be more challenged by the task.

What do you think?

[Shane Smith]

Gladiatoria shows the murder strike to the upper opening.

[philippewillaume]

Hello shane

That is what I have mustered so far.

This is the text of plate 23-24 where we have the two murder strikes.
Plate 23
merk das sechst stucke des schwerts ober den rechten fuess. hett gefert fur und sich leig an oben den mortsclag zu dem handt. So varhe den schlag zwichlen bayder dem gemide auf dem swert and schreit mit seine linken fuess auserhalb seine rechten fues und schreiss mith deinem ort and sine halss zu der linken seyten. so wursst du ihn uber as du es oben gemalt siest

plate 24
merk das hewnde stucke des swerts ober seinem knopf. hett sich gefert und wolt dir domit deiner rechte arm zwichlen deine ellpogen unde der aschlem abschalgen. so wirfft den swert fur nah der sevten und dein ort aber uberstich. So hast du den slagh verzetzt als du as du es oben gemalt siest

It seems me that we are not doing the murderstike but the baddy is doing it and tha we do the counters, which are essentially the same as in ringeck

That being said if we look at the codex wallenstein; the aremours seems to be transitional and we strike a mortsclag at opponent head when he is on the floor.

In that codex and the codex Vindobonensis the mortschlag seems to aimed at the hands or the knee when fighting an able opponent which seems consistent with the ringeck.
ll that make me think that a murderstike to the head was probably valid at one stage in time but by the late 1300-1400 that does not seems to be an option for armoured fighting.

phil