PVC cored padded weapons...a cautionary note.

[Shane Smith]

Here in VAB, we used the wood slat weapons with relatively injury-free results except for the breaking of the weapon cores themselves. This went on for years and even though we broke alot of weapons, we never broke a bone. That has changed with the advent of the newer PVC cored padded simulators. We have suffered several broken fingers and hands since we started using these tools a couple of years ago. Now, I and Matt could never be called modest strikers by any measure, yet we also have not suddenly become supermen either. The weapons change seems to be the precipitating factor for these injuries.

I have spoken with some fellow ARMA members in other study groups and they report a similar increase in the incidence of injury that seemed to increase with the use of pvc-cored weapons. I am not sure by what mechanism this is occuring, but there is little doubt in my mind that the new weapons are the cause. Until we can find out why this is happening, I want to urge my fellow Swordsmen to wear more protective gear for the hands if they choose to go at it with intensity with the plastic-cored simulators. A hand injury is a major training setback and while I'm normally the guy that tells you to "quit whining, this aint kniting class", three broken fingers in the last year here in VAB has changed my way thinking. Anyone that knows me has seen me fence with wasters with almost full out intensity with nothing more than a pair of leather gloves...no more...at least with the PVC cores. Wear the gear. If you don't and something bad happens, I told you in advance

[Jake_Norwood]

The only finger I ever broke was with a fiberglass core. The wooden slats were pretty safe...but I never had one last longer than two weeks, either. And they took hours to make.

So the quest for a good simulator continues...

Jake

[scott adair]

I have had fingers bashed by both types. At the international event, using wooden core weapons, I smashed a training partner's thumb and later got one of mine smashed. At a Houston training day I got a thumb mashed again. Both times it put me out of action for quite a while. I finally had to go to using hockey gloves. You can't manipulate a weapon nearly as well though. I have had several hits that I feel confident that without hockey gloves I would have been out of action again.


Scott Adair

[Matthew_Anderson]

Keep in mind, Shane's talking about weapons made with sch. 80 pvc, not the sch. 40 you usually see in the home stores. It's about twice as heavy as the walls of the tubes are about twice as thick. This makes it very durable, but alas, it does hit like a ton of bricks so more control and protection is required. I really haven't had a serious hand injury since I started using 3/4 finger MMA style gloves, slightly modified with the addition of a pad on the thumb. I find I still have a good grip and can manipulate the weapon correctly, but the thick, firm padding on the back of the hand and most of the fingers seems to protect very well. The tips of my fingers are still exposed and could be smashed by just the right hit, but this doesn't happen often in my experience.

[Mike Cartier]

we wear the sme protective gear to fight with our pvc paddeds as we do when we free fight with blunt steel.

[Randall Pleasant]

Shane

I discussed this today with Ernie Perez and to the best of our knowledge no one in the ARMA DFW study group has suffered a broken a finger or other serious finger injury due to sparring with padded weapons. I think most, if not all, of our more serious finger injuries have occurred in free play and drills with wasters and blunts.

[Derrick Berrier]

I have only had one sparring session thus far but I also had an experience with the pvc weapon. I had constructed the pvc weapon and my partner made the wood slat weapon. after about three hours of extended use he suffered an injury to his thumb from my pvc sword. As best we could figure the pvc still had enough "whip" in it for the tip to swing around his parry and smack him with the bolt tip which had worked through the padding a little. I of course constructed my weapon exactly to the directions on the ARMA website but I guess those weapons can only handle so much abuse. Anyway I am in the middle of making the wooden slat version now so I can get back out and swinging. Fortunately there was no serious injury and we were able to learn from the experience.

[JeanryChandler]

Hi Guys,

I think this is a problem, I broke my hand with one of my own weapons last year due to not wearing heavy enough gloves.

I believe I have found two partial solutions. #1, Using the Sch 80 pVC, it is possible to make weapons with a 1/2" core instead of 3/4", with a length up to 46"-48".

I've been using these lighter core weapons and the "wopped hands" issue has diminished dramatically.

I am providing 2 of these lighter core weapons for free to a local ARMA group to evaluate, so hopefully we will hear more about this in the future.

I also finally bit the bullet and purchased some high end (modern) lacrosse gloves. These are much less bulky than the hockey gloves or the older type lacrose gloves and at least as protective if not more. Downside is they cost about $50-$100 even used.

I believe if you take these measures, particularly using the lighter core weapons, this problem will pretty much go away.

Jean

[Matthew_Anderson]

Hi Guys,

I believe I have found two partial solutions. #1, Using the Sch 80 pVC, it is possible to make weapons with a 1/2" core instead of 3/4", with a length up to 46"-48".

I've been using these lighter core weapons and the "wopped hands" issue has diminished dramatically.

Jean

I built some 48" longsword simulators with the 1/2" sch.80 cores about a year ago. They were nice and light and handled well, but were just too "whippy" for my taste. Photographs of us sparring with them showed that they flexed a lot, even just swinging them through the air, before making contact. I have some 36" one handed weapons built with the 1/2" sch.80 pvc and they work pretty well, but I just think it's too flexible for a longsword. I even tried the old dowel inside the PVC trick, which stiffened them up quite a bit, but the dowels broke in several pieces within a few bouts and the weapons turned into noodles again.

[JeanryChandler]

I built some 48" longsword simulators with the 1/2" sch.80 cores about a year ago. They were nice and light and handled well, but were just too "whippy" for my taste. Photographs of us sparring with them showed that they flexed a lot, even just swinging them through the air, before making contact. I have some 36" one handed weapons built with the 1/2" sch.80 pvc and they work pretty well, but I just think it's too flexible for a longsword. I even tried the old dowel inside the PVC trick, which stiffened them up quite a bit, but the dowels broke in several pieces within a few bouts and the weapons turned into noodles again.

Yeah I should have explained this in more detail, I was going to wait until after the field test was done and I had a third party testimonial to backup my claims.

The reason the 36" arming swords worked (and weren't 'whippy') but the 48" longsword didn't work is due to the physics of pvc.

Not that I understand it completley but after 20 years of using this stuff I'm starting to get a clue.

Basically, the wider (in fractions of an inch) and heavier gauge (sch 80 vs sch 60 or sch 40) the PVC the longer you can get away with the core and have it not be 'whippy'. There is always a certain cutoff point in terms of length. Before that point it will stay rigid, beyond it, you can increasingly bend the stuff.

You can easily test this for yourself. Any PVC, even 1", will be very whippy in the 10' lengths they have at the hardware store. No pvc whips at all down to say, 24".

The thing is, with different length the 'whip' factor kicks in rather dramatically, it can be a matter of just a couple of inches.

The limit I have found for the core on a longsword with 1/2 sch 80 is about 43 -44". Any longer than that and you get ''whip factor'. So why did I say 46-48"? You start with a 43" core. When you add a pommel, thats 3", a thrusting tip should go another 2". That gives you a 48" total length.

It took a lot of trial and error to figure this out but I stake my reputation on this, it works. I have 3 longswords now that I have made this way and they are working just fine. In fact due to the thinner core they are more sword-like in their handling and a bit nimbler in addition to being safer to use IMO.


Due to other factors of "the physics of PVC" the dowels never work, incidentally, I highly reccomend against them.

JR

[Jonathan Scott]

So...you use a sch 80 core Without a dowel then? hmm...
I did try to get some stuff for making some paddeds a while ago, but haven't been able to get a decent type of foam (I don't have a credit card yet, and am apprehensive of getting one, so getting stuff online hasn't worked well for me yet, I don't even have a paypal account yet), as well as not being exactly sure what to get for the edges. (I do have your (Jeanry) recommendation for the "microcell puff" stuff still though, and I think Volara is like that too right?)
So until I get some sort of decent online currency, I suppose I'll have to wait on making them myself.
But another thing, is that with the stuff I got so far for the cores, I couldn't find sch 80 in 1/2" thickness, so I had to get a bunch of 3/4" ones, and I don't trust those due to it being hard to balance them (they end up being a lot heavier than I'd like) and because they hit Hard (well certainly with only some "camping foam" protecting the hands from the core, so I'm thinking the closed cell foam does better than that)

[Matthew_Anderson]

Jeanry,

I'll bow to your extensive experience with making these, but I find it hard to believe 4" is really going make that much difference. I mean really, the 1/2" cores were flexing like noodles about half-way up the blade even before making any contact. It nakes realistic technique almost impossible, we even got hit sometimes by the blade flexing around a hard bind or warding move like a hengen which would never happen with a real blade. I'll try again and see what improvement I can get but it seems like the search for the perfect sparring weapon continues IMO.

[JeanryChandler]

some "camping foam" protecting the hands from the core, so I'm thinking the closed cell foam does better than that)

Use the 'microcell puff' for the flats. I would call ACOR they will probably let you pay with a check.

As for the camping pad foam for the "edges", I have found that it actually compresses less than the Landau / Volara, actually bought a bunch of Landau / Volara and have reverted back to the camping pad stuff because I think it's actually safer.

I agree the 3/4 " core weapons can be a bit hard on the hands, as we have discussed, but it's a viable alternative as long as you use adequate safety gear. I have used them for about ten years in essentially this same configuration and only one relativley minor injury that I know of ( a hairline fracture of my hand).

Still I reccomend the 1/2" as the best current solution.

JR

[JeanryChandler]

Jeanry,

I'll bow to your extensive experience with making these, but I find it hard to believe 4" is really going make that much difference. I mean really, the 1/2" cores were flexing like noodles about half-way up the blade even before making any contact. It nakes realistic technique almost impossible, we even got hit sometimes by the blade flexing around a hard bind or warding move like a hengen which would never happen with a real blade. I'll try again and see what improvement I can get but

Hi Matt,

I appreciate that and understand your skepticism, but I believe you can test this very easily. Go get one of those 48" sections of the 1/2" Sch 80, (or cut one if they aren't available precut and threaded as they are at the LOWES I go to) and simply cut a further 5" off of one of them. Then take them both and do a test striking oberhau and suddenly stopping, or you can even take a photo while you strike at an object like a pell or an already made padded weapon.

I believe you will notice a DRAMATIC difference between the 43" and the 48" piece.

Why this works this way I don't know but I have observed that it does.

it seems like the search for the perfect sparring weapon continues IMO.

That is without a doubt. Having said that, I believe the 3/4" sch 80 was a quantum leap over the dowel in tube version or the slat version, if only because they do not break. I believe the 1/2" is a similar quantum leap over the 3/4" due to enhanced safety.

I am always looking at new materials and new methods though. There is an interesting new material I have heard of in Europe which is some kind of fiberglass board similar to the material they make circuit b0ards out of. Apparently it is very strong and light, and needless to say very flat, and is already being used both for cores and for complete weappons by LARP groups in Europe. I haven't found the material available yet in the USA.

If anyone knows a trade name this stuff sells under in the US please notify me!

JR

[Shane Smith]

Here's a 1/2" cored pvc weapon showing it's inherent whippiness;