PVC cored padded weapons...a cautionary note.

[JeanryChandler]

Here's a 1/2" cored pvc weapon showing it's inherent whippiness;

LOL! Yeah thats really bad. I don't think I ever made any weapons which were that whippy, except for a couple of "rejects". Is that sch 80? How long is it? It also helps is you use the orthopedic foam.

You'll notice incidentaly that the 3/4" gets just as whippy at a certain length, so does the 1". If you pick up a 10' section at the hardware store you can see this instantly. Each length, (and each legnth / guage) has it's 'flexibility' point.


Edit: If that is sch 80, TRY cutting out 6" of the core on that sword. You can make up about half of that lost length with a foam tip. You will end up with a shorter but usable and hopefully non-wippy weapon.

J

[JeanryChandler]

Most of the swords used in this video are 1/2" sch 80. For example the weapons I personally use (the fat guy) and the sword with the red "ricasso" are 1/2" pvc core. I think you can see clearly that they aren't anywhere near that "whippy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAUXRxHORGw

(apologies for the bad music... the video was made by a 16 year old)

JR

[Matthew_Anderson]

Most of the swords used in this video are 1/2" sch 80. For example the weapons I personally use (the fat guy) and the sword with the red "ricasso" are 1/2" pvc core. I think you can see clearly that they aren't anywhere near that "whippy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAUXRxHORGw

(apologies for the bad music... the video was made by a 16 year old)

JR

Yeah, nice sound track Those weapons in the picture have about a 48" core, sch.80. I'm going to try making 1/2" cores that are about 42", add 2" or so of pommel, and 4" thrusting tip and try them out. Also, please note that Shane and I are both pretty "heavy hitters", we go really hard and fast when we spar each other and I sometimes call Shane the "sword destroyer" as he seems able to break almost anything. In the above photo, I'm taking a VERY HARD blow from Shane on my hengen, so hard he has driven my hilt down to the point where my hands are very low(not good) and I'm tourquing the hilt really hard to try and bring it back up and cut around to the other side. So, that's just about the most punishment a sparring weapon is ever going to take!

[JeanryChandler]

Most of the swords used in this video are 1/2" sch 80. For example the weapons I personally use (the fat guy) and the sword with the red "ricasso" are 1/2" pvc core. I think you can see clearly that they aren't anywhere near that "whippy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAUXRxHORGw

(apologies for the bad music... the video was made by a 16 year old)

JR

Yeah, nice sound track I'm going to try making 1/2" cores that are about 42", add 2" or so of pommel, and 4" thrusting tip and try them out. Thanks for all the help and tips.

Also, in the above photo, I'm taking a VERY HARD blow from Shane on my hengen, so hard he has driven my hilt down to the point where my hands are very low, and I'm tourquing the hilt really hard to try and bring it back up and cut around to the other side. So, that's just about the most punishment a sparring weapon is ever going to take!

Sounds good... a 2" tip might be more realistic but whatever works for you (That still gives you a 46" sword which is well within normal parameters). , I find if you make them too long they get a bit floppy. Make sure to store the weapon point upward regardles, to save your point.

Let me know how it turns out.

JR

P.S. and use that orthopedic foam if you can get your hands on it...

[JeanryChandler]

One other suggestion: practice a few test swings with the core before you make the weapon. That way you can be sure the core is no more flexible than you are comfortable with before you go through all the effort of finishing. If you feel it is too "floppy", cut off another two inches or so and try again. Once you are certain it feels right go ahead and put it all together.

JR

[Ben Strickling]

I know this is a bit late to chime in on this discussion, but today we took some pictures that show how much even sch80 pvc can bend with a committed strike:

Here's one of the pictures we took:


And here's link to a short video clip where you can see how much the sword bends:
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ashmund/MVI_0476.avi

The sword shown is 3/4" sch80 (abt 45" long) padded with Landau and taped with duct tape and then strapping tape. The sword doesn't feel whippy when you florysh with it or when you try to bend it by hand, but often when a decent blow is blocked with a kron or even a hengen you can feel (as you can see here) the blade bend, sometimes even allowing the defender to get hit when he otherwise wouldn't have.

Just my 2 cents,

[JeanryChandler]

I don't know what you are doing wrong, but I can only conclude that you aren't making the weapons correctly. I can observe in the photo that your weapons appear to be very thinly padded and I also strongly reccomend using the firmer orthopdeic foam for the flats. I would also speculate that weight and mass distribution (of the tape especially) could possibly make a difference.

Whatever the differnce is, it does appear to be there. I've already posted a bunch of footage of my own weapons, both 1/2" and 3/4", and you can see clearly that they don't bend under equally heavy blows. I'll film some a shorter clip tomorrow exactly the type of clip you just did and post it as well.

I have given 2 weapons to Kyle Cooks's ARMA group in Houston to evaluate, Kyle is a man of few words and hasn't given me a detailed report yet, but he did say "They work good, were not whippy. " and ordered two more weapons.

I'm sending two more to Aron Pynenburg (sp) to evaluate, and am also filling out 2 other orders from ARMA members who I'm asking to evaluate.

If anyone has used my weapons (either the 3/4" or 1/2") and found that they bend to the extent showed in this or the other photo in this thread I would like to hear of it.

I don't mean to come across defensive, bottom line I'm interested in making better full-contact sparring weapons regardless of what they are made of, or who makes them. If it does indeed turn out that I'm wrong about the pvc and it does flex too much, (maybe you guys just swing harder than I do?) then we at least have the Realistic Sparring Weapons which Lance makes.

As far as I can tell the PVC cores are still viable however, if not ideal. I hope we'll continue to improve the designs and the materials over time.


Jeanry

[Gene Tausk]

I have three of Jeanry's weapons and I can also vouch that they are not "whippy." They handle well and a person certainly knows when he has been hit.

I don't make contact weapons myself so I can't comment on what could be causing this flexibility, or "whippiness" in the weapons.

I suppose, however, like anything else, improvements are always being made in the design of contact weapons so probably at some point there will be another "generation" of weapons that will be better than the current ones.

[Ben Strickling]

Jeanry,

Thanks for the feedback. First, let me say that I've tried a couple of your swords and found them to be very well made, so my post was in no way a criticism of your weapons.

The sword I was using was quite old, and it's seen a bit of action so the padding might have compressed a bit, but I'm pretty sure that thickness isn't the problem -- the thickness of that particular sword ranges from 3/4" to 1". However, a stiffer foam might indeed help. After a while, that landau foam does seem to soften up a bit.

I did just want to point out one thing: Although it does look that way in the video, the sword really isn't "whippy" -- at least, it doesn't feel whippy. It's quite stiff and though it does feel bouncy at time (compared to a waster, of course) I really didn't realize how much the sword was bending until we caught it on camera. Then I started to notice it. Though again, it might just be the older sword. I'll try making a newer one with stiffer foam and see what difference that makes.

Thanks for the advice --

[JeanryChandler]

No worries Ben,

Your efforts are appreciated. I'm always interested in feedback on the basic design. Apparently there is more to it than just using the sch 80 core, as under a certain length, 3/4" sch 80 doesn't seem to bend to me at all. Maybe it has something to do with mass distribution, too much weight toward the striking-end might make it flex like that maybe. I don't know but I'd like to find out. I also usually tend to make mine tapering, wider at the base.

That said I wouldn't be surprised if there is some flex with that kind of core on a really hard hit, but what I saw in that photo seemed excessive. I'll have to try some experiments on my own, and I urge other folks to continue to do so as well.

J

P.S. whatever happened to those flattened cores people were working on for a while?

[JeanryChandler]

Jeanry,

Thanks for the feedback. First, let me say that I've tried a couple of your swords and found them to be very well made, so my post was in no way a criticism of your weapons.

Two questions, 1) do you have any of my weapons available that you could test with, and 2) how much do your weapons weigh? Just trying to figure out whats going on here.

For me, the issue is not at all about my weapons. I don't make any money on those, I make all my designs public and I give away more than I sell. (if I wanted to make money I'd make LARP weapons maybe!) The issue is keeping full speed sparring alive, because I think it's important for the future of WMA. Thats why I maintain such a presence on the ARMA forums even though I'm not a member. I think ARMA fighters are the best WMA fighters largely because you practice full-speed, full contact.

Padded weapons are only one of several important training tools, blunts, wooden wasters and sharps for testing cutting are at least equally important in my opinion.

But I don't think you can really do blossfechten in full armor, I don't think shinai or aluminum blunts are ideal training weapons for full contact either, so thats why I try to promote and further develop padded weapons, I think full-contact, full speed sparring is a key aspect of keeping WMA honest (even if this opinion does get me kicked off of Sword Forum International!).

J

[Ben Strickling]

How much do your weapons weigh?

They're usually between 2.5 and 3 pounds.

Do you have any of my weapons available that you could test with,

Yes, one of our members has one, but he's on vacation now and it'll be a few weeks until he gets back. Until then, I'll try to take the exact same sword, strip the padding off, and re-pad it with new foam, using the ortho. foam for the flats. That'll give me a better idea about whether it might be the padding or the sch80 itself.

[Jake_Norwood]

I've got a picture somwhere of me hitting a chainmail square on a pell with a well-made steel sword, and it's whipped around more than in that picture.

Meyer's prellhau depends on it, for that matter.

Stuff flexes, guys. If it feels stiff, it's stiff. You can tell...if it doesn't whip a little when it hits a person that means all of that force is going into them...that's not good, either.

Jake

[JeffGentry]

I've got a picture somwhere of me hitting a chainmail square on a pell with a well-made steel sword, and it's whipped around more than in that picture.

Meyer's prellhau depends on it, for that matter.

Stuff flexes, guys. If it feels stiff, it's stiff. You can tell...if it doesn't whip a little when it hits a person that means all of that force is going into them...that's not good, either.

Jake

Or all that force is being transmitted back through the object your hitting with, which is the padded sparring weapon.


Jeff

[Shane Smith]

I've got a picture somwhere of me hitting a chainmail square on a pell with a well-made steel sword, and it's whipped around more than in that picture.

Meyer's prellhau depends on it, for that matter.

Stuff flexes, guys. If it feels stiff, it's stiff. You can tell...if it doesn't whip a little when it hits a person that means all of that force is going into them...that's not good, either.

Jake

I don't think swords flex too terribly much along the axis that disects the edges do they? I know they flex on the flat but significant flexing of the edge seems unlikely without a broken weapon being a likely result.

I will also add that I noticed a large increase in peripheral hits to hands and arms in spite of good technique in defending because of the whippy blade of the pvc weapon curving around a cover to strike.