WMA vs. Western Weight Training.

[Keith Culbertson]

I would agree generally but also remember the key--it also depends on what activity you are looking to improve. This has been my point the whole time- the activity dictates what kind of "fitness"- you are looking for-AP

Yes Aaron, I agree with you that whatever you train is what will improve. However, Corey had a good point about considering one's body type to find a training regimen to reach a goal. Also, the comments about fast and slow twitch fibers are valid--we need explosive power, but we might also need endurance against a skilled foeor several. As a personal trainer i recommend that people look at the goal, their body, their current nutrition and activity levels. Adjust the components to a balance that allows you success in both anaerobic (explosive) and aerobic exercises/activities. It is necessary to gain mass before shaping it. Skills must be repeated (properly!) thousands of times to become very excellent in their effect. So, most of the ideas have been correct here for different people in diffeent proportions----you must look where you are first to see where you might go.

As for the manuscript and other documents--cool stuff guys and thanks for the links

cheers,

[ElizabethPangerl]

Perhaps this is like a fish's perspective of the age old question as to whether the chicken or the egg came first. I am a 5'1" female of only 1/8 German descent. Take one of those bikini girls, turn her Asian, pack about 30 extra pounds on her and give her black pants and a red shirt - that's more like me. I'll never have anybody's idea of the perfect swordsman's physique. But because I love what we do, I want to become as good as I can with what I do have. So I train with my wasters and work on what that tells me to do.

I never concerned myself with fitness before I took up my waster and I have no interest in it except in how it can help me more effectivly wield a sword. I only work on fitness in addition to my waster practice (walk/jog, dance, Pilates, strength training with weights) because continuous improvement in all those fitness areas that Jeff listed will help me swing a sword harder, faster, and for a longer amount of time. But only swinging that waster will let me see if I'm improving in form, speed, or power. It's the ruler by which every other activity is measured.

My point is there's always room for improvement and for me it's motivated by what I see (or don't see) when I have that sword in hand.

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Elizabeth.

I can identify with that. I was something of a couch potato up until I discovered HACA (ARMA). I started swinging a sword, and I wanted to get better. So I started running, lifing weights, spending two hours a day on the pell...now I'm a different person alltogether. After a fashion I joined the Army because, on some level, I knew it would improve my swordsmanship.

Yeah, once you find something you really love, that really motivates you, it's amazing what you'll do.

Jake

[Jeffrey Hull]

If I were to advocate ANY wieght lifting for swordsmanship then it would be stuff that focused on the whole body moving in explosive mass-unit, and/or stuff focusing on developing all the muscles of arms through all their range of motion.

Thus: power-clean, clean&jerk, snatch - all with low poundage, say never more than 1/3 to 1/2 your body-weight maximum. These are dangerous explosive lifts as done by Olympic lifters in practice and competition, requiring strength and dexterity - be warned!

And/or: small dumb-bells, no more than 3 to 5 pounds in each hand (you shall never use an authentic longsword over 4 pounds weight anyway, or for that matter a big two-hander over 7 pounds), and do variety of lifts, curls, and pulls with proper form (watch that spine), and at various angles, through variety of range of motion for all the joints of arms.

Thus the workout is not for powerlifting, bulking, body-building, or even Olympic lifting. One could consider it more akin to circuit or aerobic weight-training. But even then, do not burn out and have no energy or lack of muscle-recovery for swordsmanship.

Any weight lifting should help martial arts, not hinder them.

[Andrzej Rosa]

I'd generally agree with your approach, that is, as I understand it, more explosive power than brute force.

But (there is always some but), I think one needs to use some real weights.

Come on. I'm no Hector, I'm no weightlifter, I'm no athlete, I'm not even slim, yet I can snatch more one handed than you recommend (and I suck at it seriously).

Anyway, back to where we actually agree - I think that one handed lifting would be very fine for swordsmen. It is actually much easier to learn than two handed lifting, so one can go heavy earlier, it builds trunk muscles used at swordplay and it does not need so much flexibility. Also one can do fine with much less weight and with simpler equipment.

All good things, from my point of view.

Oh, I almost forgot. It is possible to injure yourself by doing it. I guess, that a battle would be more dangerous, but I can not say for sure.

Best regards.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I did not recommend "one-handed" lifting.

All the recommended lifts use "real weights".

Perhaps there was some misunderstanding.

However, if you want to work up to your body-weight, or up to what the top Olympic lifters do - depending on weight-class, thus clean& jerk between 2 to 3 times one's own body-weight - then by all means show everyone you can do that, be the star of the weight-room, and then also try to have energy left for fencing and needed recovery of the body.

But if you want work on strength for fencing, then a heavy regimen - whether for Olympic lifting for powerlifting (what I used to do) - shall prove hindering and ultimately useless, if you try to pursue it as best you can and then also try to pursue fencing as best you can.

If you want to lift, then lift. If you want to fence, then fence.

[david welch]

I recommend one hand lifting. I have a pair of 50s that do really well for it. As a matter of fact, almost all the plates that show fighters lifting rocks show them doing it one handed. Squat with the weight at shoulder level, and jump up. When you get up push the weight over your head. One handed push presses. One handed C&J are pretty good too.

Also, anyone that is in such bad shape that they just don't have the energy to work out in the morning two or three times a week and then swing a sword around in the afternoon NEEDS to be working out.

[Andrzej Rosa]

Maybe there was some misunderstanding. My English gets rusty if I do not use it regularly.

Anyway, you wrote about using 3-5 lb "weights" for _weight_ training. C'mon. Get real.

I also find, that giving some hard limit in snatch like 1/2 bodyweight is not really good advice. Some will need more, others less. For some it will be cardio workout, for others a limit lift.

Otherwise I agree with you. Olympic lifts give this kind of explosive power which is actually quite useful in fighting (I'm no fencer, but I guess that similar rules must apply), so this make sense, IMHO. I liked them, but found them to be really hard to master (you also need bumper plates, revolving bar and lifting platform), so I switched to one handed variations of Olympic lifts and found them much easier and at least equally effective. Reasonable alternative, which actually hits "the right muscles".

Regarding "to be better at fencing, fence more", sure, that will always answer, until you will develop some sort of overuse injury, for example.

I did not meant to hurt anybody here. I simply believe that training with "light" weights is not really helpful (better do more fencing). If weights then relatively heavy weights (moved as fast as possible would be great).

Best regards.

[David Rowlands]

I dont know if this has been brought up here or not, but couldnt they have used heavier swords to build muscle? Im not sure if thats what those huge decorative swords were used for but using a heavier sword would build the muscles you need and it would also make you faster at the same time. About the same principle of those lead-soled shoes that were brought up here. Just a thought...

[Jake_Norwood]

We know that they used double-weighted swords or clubs for training, yes.

That means a 5-6 pound stick, I reckon, which is much more challenging than a 5-6 pound dumbbell.

They also reccomended about two hours a day of this (at the pell), IIRC, but don't quote me if I'm not quoting a source...

Jake

[S. Hord]

LOL.

I am working out and fencing all week, and then going and roll on the weekend. And after my Sunday three hour date rape, the only thing I want is more explosive power and endurance.....

Your humor does not amuse me Mr. Welch. At best I find it in poor taste.

As for your other points, I think weight lifting is very helpful but it is in no way the end all be all.

I think you are mistaking Aerobic with Anaerobic. Aerobic activity is long in duration yet low in intensity while anaerobic activity is short in duration and high in intensity. If you are about to puke & gasping for air after 2 min you are working anaerobically. Aerobic exercise increases the oxygen in your body, it conditions the heart to use oxygen more efficiently. Anaerobic excercise is good to build power but not endurance.

[david welch]

Your humor does not amuse me Mr. Welch. At best I find it in poor taste.

Yeah... I guess I will learn to live with that. Eventually.

As for your other points, I think weight lifting is very helpful but it is in no way the end all be all.

Show me where the people that are saying fighters need to suppliment their workout with strength training are saying it is the "end all be all".

Not only am I doing sword work, I am also fighting with pretty high level BJJ and MMA fighters to help with my grappling. Until he moved, one of my sparring partners (if you can call what I was doing "sparring") is the pan-American super heavyweight BJJ champion. My other partner is a Vale tudor/shoot fighter that grapples at close to that level. Of course, as a plus, he will also hold you down and punch you in the head. THESE are the guys that have put my workout routine together, and they basically just laugh when I tell them about the "no martial artist needs to lift weights" stuff on the internet.

Jeffrey Hull had some real good advice in his post... O lifts with about 1/2 your 1RM is a great way to build power. A 20 min session of O lifts in a circuit is a great CV workout. These build strength, flexability and cardio. They fall below the threshhold of hypertrophy stimulation, so for the most part building strength doesn't increas size. As a matter of fact, there is very little to no correlation of size to strength. You can get much stronger, and not get any bigger at all.

You can say weight lifting is hard and you don't want to do it. You can say it hurts and you don't want to do it. I just wish people would quit saying it is worthless to add it into your other stuff. It could be worse I guess. I have read on other sites where they didn't think you needed to work out at all.

Can you put together a combat sport conditioning routine that doesn't involve weight lifting? Yeah. Would you be better off if you put it together and included weight lifting? Yeah.

Lastly, I dont know where you got "Aerobic with Anaerobic". I was just talking about the need for working out for power (lift something heavy, lift it fast, lift it 4 or 5 times for 3 or 4 sets) so you have explosive strength when you are grappling, not for endurance. Unless you are talking about the push presses. If you don't do full body cardio you will fall apart when you have to use your upper body. Just running or biking alone won't cut it.

Well, I guess this is really lastly. Sword fighting involves not just fighting with a sword, but closing, grappling, and dagger wrestling. If you are just doing sword and not training for the others, IMO you are learning an incomplete art.

[david welch]

We know that they used double-weighted swords or clubs for training, yes.

That means a 5-6 pound stick, I reckon, which is much more challenging than a 5-6 pound dumbbell.

They also reccomended about two hours a day of this (at the pell), IIRC, but don't quote me if I'm not quoting a source...

Jake

I have been doing sets of the 8 cut drill with a staff, as fast as I can keep strict form as part of my workout. It is suprising how much an 8' stick can kick butt.

[ElizabethPangerl]

Two quick comments:

1. 3-5 lb dumbbells for weight training are not utter nonsense if you are starting from scratch and do a lot of reps to up the endurance from the start.

2. I have small hands and have been traveling with 8 lb. dumbbells, using them for weight training as well as for 16-cut drills.

[Jake_Norwood]

Elizabeth,

It's not utter nonsense, true. But it would be for some of us.

I bench 300lbs (on a good day, LOL). I'm a big guy. To warm up "explosive" strength I lay on the bench and throw the 45 lb bar into the air, catch it, and repeat about 25-40 reps. A 3-5 lb weight won't do much for me anymore.

But you're absolutely right that at certain stages and for certain purposes a 5-lb weight will get the job done. I think that one point we se appearing over and over again is that you need to train for your desired end-state.

I've been beaten by larger, stonger men when coming to grips on enough occassions that I decided I needed to be stronger. So I started lifting heavy for a while. If I feel that I've slowed down or lost endurance in the process then I'll change my routine, working in more body weight exercises at explosive speeds and less weights. If I'm fat I'll run (and I'm fat right now, so I'm running, heh).

When I first started lifting heavy I lost flexibility. Then I started working to balance muscle groups (back exercises to balance out the chest, etc) and now my flexibility issues are gone.

Lift to increase strength, endurance, speed, power, flexibility. What are Wallersteins three things for grappling?

Speed, Strength, Reach, if I recall. Di Grassi tells us that speed is more important, and it is gained by moving often and swiftly, not by moving around heavy weights. But CW tells us (IIRC) that while speed beats strength, Strength overcomes reach (can someone correct me on that...I know Strength covercomes something or other but I don't have my books out here...). It also says that when play fighting the stronger man will almost always win. By play fighting he means practice. I like winning in practice, and I got sick of Jeff Hansen folding me in half! So I got bigger.

But it's not my focus...it's a side-thing right now. Train how you fight, they say. Train to fight. That includes weights. Why not use any tool available to get better? That means 5-lb weights and, if it will help you, 300-lb weights.

Jake