Special forces swordsmanship

[Jay Vail]

I am now trying to post (again) the NYT photo of US special forces practicing swordsmanship in the Philipines last year. You will note how similar the guards they are assuming are to the von tach. To me this demonstrates the universality of technique, and validates our interpretation of the medieval texts. Thoughts anyone?

[Guest]

Nice photo, I lived in the Philippines from 86 till 91. Filipinos are very serious in thier Martial Arts and thier military is pretty tough, especially when it comes to jungle warfare.

There was a Filipino who was a negrito, who came on base every morning to sell his swords. He has all types from medieval to the bolo. They where heavy for medieval blades but his knives where pretty good.

On Friday nights the Filipinos would have fights at an old barn in Balibago where they would fight for money and you could bet on a fighter. It was funny to watch drunk marines take thier shirts and step onto the saw dust floor and then get knocked out in less than 60 seconds.

At Clark Air Base there is a place called Karigador (spelling) Hill where the Japanese had thier last stand. They where dug very deep. I remember the entrance to the caves being seal in with concrete, the hills was next to my barracks. The Americans sent the Negritos in at night with nothing more than bow and arrow and bolo knives and took out the japanese. Pretty interesting.

Cheers

Todd

[Randall Pleasant]

Todd

Let us not forget that the Moros and the bolo were the reason the US Army had upgraded from the Colt .38 revolver to the Colt Model 1911 .45 ACP. It is true that you should not take a sword to a gun fight but it is also true you should not take a small gun to a sword fight! Even today a good bowie blade and a good Colt .45 ACP are considered by many to be required dress for all social events. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Shane Smith]

Well said Rand...There are not many close-combat situations that can't be handled with a major-caliber auto-pistol or revolver and a K-bar.As a civilian with a love for firearms and anything else martial, I'd still prefer to use my personal M14 for punching holes through machete-wielding, juiced up natives wearing body-armor of tightly wrapped vines and cloth (I'll even afix the M6 bayonet to appease those of you that MUST include the flash of sharpened steel to the fray to feel complete <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> ).

[Guest]

I believe they are practicing Pekiti-Tirsia Kali, which I dabble in - I haven't seen enough of the system to comment on any likenesses though, but I really look forward to learn some espada y daga. <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

Andreas Kullenberg

[scott adair]

In Remy Presas's "modern arnis" the intro says there are more than 7000 islands in the Phillipine archipelago and nearly every island was home to at least one style. I could'nt find a reference to the possible number of styles in Mark Wiley's "fillipino martial arts". Pekiti tersia may be well known is some areas but you can' t tell anything about the style those guys are learning based on their posture. It could be anything.


,Scott

[Mike West]

I've heard that story before. I also remember reading a gun writer, perhaps Jeff Cooper, or something in Gun Digest, I am not sure who, who said that the US Army didn't have a problem with knocking down "Gong Maddend Moros" as the 30-40 Krag could do that easily, and that rifle saw much greater use in the Phillipines than did pistols.
The author also said that the story was one of the myths of that war.

[Randall Pleasant]

Mike

Indeed, the 30-40 Krag rife was the main weapon used against the Morros. The rife is always the main weapon. If the story is a myth then we are still left with the question of what was the reason for the US Army wanting a bigger pistol? The only conflict during that time that involved lots of close combat was with the Morros. Even the "new" 30-40 Krag would soon be replaced by the more powerful 30.06 Springfield. If you find that article please sent me the reference.

Thanks

[Mike West]

The American Army soldier probably didn't have any trouble dealing with a Moro fanatic with his rifle, or shotgun(if they used them), but I can see if lot's of soldier, or perhaps officers complained about not being able to stop an attacker with his .38, then the Army brass would consider adopting the
.45 acp.

As for the article, it wasn't online, but I think it was in an article on the Phillipine wars in Gun Digest. Likely an issue from the 1990's. They are annuals, so that shouldn't be that many to choose from.

[Guest]

Randall I remember an article, even if I do not have it anymore, in which Duane Thomas pointed out that the 45 colt (double action Army 1877 with enlarged triggerguard, meant for artic use, sent to the Philippines) proved no more effective than the puny 38 long colt (inferior even to the 158 grains sulgged black powder 38 spl. born after the Philippine war), mechanical problems with the swing out cylinder 38 could be a better reason for it's decline. In the author's opinion the Kraag proved a feeble stopper too. Only the 12 gauge pump action Whinchester model 97 was effective. I'm not sure that the Philippine war infuenced Uncle Sam in the adoption of the 30-06 and Springfield more than the reports of the Boer war, where long range shooting was common occurrence, and the rising mith of the Mauser among riflemen. (drop a note to Duane Thomas if you whant to know more)

As to swordmenship: those of you who had the chance of wittnessing Philippuino swordmen at work noticed a marked European influence? Of which weapons?

[Guest]

I found an article by Pat Rogers: "The gun that failed" Combat Handguns August 1994, that speaks about the matter, do you whant me to mail it to you?
The most interesting feature of the article is that the bolo knife depitched is no larger than a bowie knife, so one wonders why bayonets and sabres weren't enogh to oppose it.

[Guest]

Scott, the reason I believe it is Pekiti-Tirsia is that the guy in the background has the pekiti logo on his shirt. Secondly, the filipino marines do pekiti-tirsia as part of their training.

On another note, is it possible for me to keep this username? I have tried numerous computers and browsers, but my full name is always refused. I hope I wont get banned again <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thanks,
Andreas Kullenberg

[scott adair]

Andreas,

I did not see the logo on the shirt and can't make it out, but I will take your word for it. Have'nt heard what style or styles fillipino marines train. If they are anything like our military they probably do not use one trainer or style exclusively. A previous instructor of mine did some training for the military and he said no one can claim the 'exclusive trainer' title in the U.S.

Carlo,

bolos come in many sizes and barongs were also said to be used by the Moros. Both could easily be 24" or longer.

I do not think that sabers were issued at all among U.S. troops at that time. As for bayonets I think that one should consider that a U.S. soldier would recieve some bayonet training but would rely more heavily on firearms. It would be easier to arm them with a more powerful firearm than give them larger bladed weapons which they would need to be trained in using. Also consider that the Moros probably trained with blades since their youth.

Scott Adair

[Hans Heim]

Hi all,

last year Grand Tuhon Leo T.Gaje, the grandmaster of Pekiti Tirsia Kali gave a seminar here in Munich. We talked some time after the seminar about the training at the Philippines and he said, that some of his students train with some of the Marines. We also talked about the similarities of Pekiti Tirsia and the German System and he said that good things are always the same over the world.

I think that expecially the Dussack style of J.Meyer and the way of how to handle your Bolo or your stick in Pekiti Tirsia are very similar. The position which is shown in this picture is 100 % the "Wacht" from J.Meyer. We have in Pekiti Tirsia Kali also the "Zornhut" and the "Pastey = Alber" and we always flow through the guards and this is what J.Meyer wrote about how to handle the guards.

Hans

[Jay Vail]

Thanks, Hans, this is the sort of insight I was hoping to provoke by posting this picture. As someone else also said, the true stuff can be found in any art.