Hits in sparring

[david welch]

With the ever increasing numbers of newer people in ARMA studying on their own, I wanted to bring proper hits in sparring back to the front. We had a guest this weekend, a newer member Will Adamson. After sparring, and while we were doing some test cutting I took a piece of felt and put it over my pell and took a few hits at it and let Will take a few. He got to see how even thin felt was hard to cut through, as would be leather gloves.

Even in groups where there are experienced people to train the newer guys, I think it is important to show them why we have to cut from the shoulder, and why the more experienced people will shrug off being "slapped" at with wrist and elbow cuts a lot of the time. If a denim jacket would have protected me, I am not going to call it a good hit in sparring. It has to be a good hit.

Mind you, I am not saying you have to beat people like a baby seal... but a sword doesn't just kill you if you get touched by it.

[Will Adamson]

That was a good example. Thanks for taking basically your whole afternoon to work with me.

BTW, the swelling is going down in my finger and I should be able to get my ring back on later today.

[david welch]

Hey, bud!

You are more that welcome to come down here and train with us anytime! Just say the word and you can always find somebody down here ready to go!

I wasn't trying to point you out as a weak hitter, either. Really, I guess what I meant was, for the people trying to show this stuff to others it is importaint to remember to keep showing the "why" behind the "you need to do this".

We can tell someone they need to hit harder, or hit different, or hit whatever all day long. But if we show them the principle behind the why, they can go on to figure other stuff out on their own. This just got me thinking about it.

Glad about the finger! LOL

[Steve Ames]

Interesting discussion. I attended Guy Windsor's longsword class at ISMAC a few weeks back and he twice pointed out that the sword doesn't need to be moving very forcefully to do its job. This thread seems to contradict that. Mr. Windsor didn't have a sharp with him to demonstrate the point visusally. I also don't have a sharp so can't test either way for myself.

But this questions comes up, especially free-sparring with wasters. What constitutes a hit worth stopping for. You clearly don't want to start ignoring any hit except the ones that break your bones but you don't want to stop for nicks and taps either. How do you develop a feel for what constitutes a GOOD hit?

[Claus Sørensen]

Hmmm

It is true that some "hits" simply doesn't count when sparring(Blössfechten)! But in our group those hits are only the ones that hit your opponent without the cutting/slicing part of the move.

We have also used testcutting in our research and we have never had any problems cutting through cloth, flesh and bone on the pigparts that we have used in this!

Best wishes

[Allen Johnson]

Interesting discussion. I attended Guy Windsor's longsword class at ISMAC a few weeks back and he twice pointed out that the sword doesn't need to be moving very forcefully to do its job. This thread seems to contradict that. Mr. Windsor didn't have a sharp with him to demonstrate the point visusally. I also don't have a sharp so can't test either way for myself.

But this questions comes up, especially free-sparring with wasters. What constitutes a hit worth stopping for. You clearly don't want to start ignoring any hit except the ones that break your bones but you don't want to stop for nicks and taps either. How do you develop a feel for what constitutes a GOOD hit?

I think there is a difference between having a sword moving 'forcefully enough to do its job' and playing tag. I think what he may have been trying to get across is that you dont need to 'swing for the fences' on every strike. However, it needs to be more of a tap as well. We need to find the happy medium between an excessive, out of control blow and the useless sport fencing tappy-tap. Watch some of the videos of John doing test cutting. He is obviously "getting the job done" but certainly not putting every ounce of stregnth into the blows.

[david welch]

But this questions comes up, especially free-sparring with wasters. What constitutes a hit worth stopping for. You clearly don't want to start ignoring any hit except the ones that break your bones but you don't want to stop for nicks and taps either. How do you develop a feel for what constitutes a GOOD hit?

We use good mechanics. If we deliver a pulled hit with good mechanics that could have had a good impact, it is a good hit (if me and my training partner think so). But if I am all jacked up and out of position? Probably not...

Of course, this could also be a "when you are ready to free spar with wasters, you'll know" kind of thing. LOL

Hmmm

It is true that some "hits" simply doesn't count when sparring(Blössfechten)! But in our group those hits are only the ones that hit your opponent without the cutting/slicing part of the move.

We have also used testcutting in our research and we have never had any problems cutting through cloth, flesh and bone on the pigparts that we have used in this!

We don't have any problems properly cutting through cloth covered pigs here either. But, I don't think many new people are going to be doing proper draw cutting. And a draw cut still has to hit, you can't just lay a sword on somebody and slide it around and make a good cut. Hang a piece of meat and cover it in cloth, and then take your sword and saw on it and see what doesn't happen.

Also, this might be a good place to warn about how test cutting with absurdly sharp swords can also give people a false idea about fighting.

And of course I am still mostly talking about how newer people will fight by hold the sword out at long point and waveing it back and forth with their wrists, and that kind of thing. Don't count thoses, and show them why it doesn't count.

[Denise Smith]

I can attest to ARMA methods that David uses in instructing.
The best example came in some of the hand to hand lessons. In one of those lovely arm twisting, disarming moves he first demonstrated on me. A slight twist, than a turn, and then one that gets you to 'tap-out'. But what completed the instruction was to than allow me to do the same to him. Because I had never tested my own strength it allowed me to feel how far a person can be twisted safely in sparring until they reach the point of 'tapping-out'.
I saw his wife Donna demonstrating the same way with padded weapon strikes.

This light/ medium/ enough method also allows a person to gauge what the next strength level would be that should not be used in sparring.

We all learn a great deal from the Welch family.

[Lance Chan]

I think whether something's a good hit or not really depends on the context.... is it a duel to death, or to first blood... are the parties in tropical area where clothes were thin and minimal, or in cold area where thick clothes were common. These all contribute to different judging standard.

I've been involved in a live blade practice and produced cut through my opponent's modern nylon long sleeves coat with virtually no contact. A mere touch from a very carefully pulled hit cut open everything. That's partly because of the fabric nature, partly because I kept my sword very sharp.

So I think it's not easy to use a single standard to apply on all situations.

[jeremy pace]

I think whether something's a good hit or not really depends on the context.... is it a duel to death, or to first blood... are the parties in tropical area where clothes were thin and minimal, or in cold area where thick clothes were common. These all contribute to different judging standard.

I've been involved in a live blade practice and produced cut through my opponent's modern nylon long sleeves coat with virtually no contact. A mere touch from a very carefully pulled hit cut open everything. That's partly because of the fabric nature, partly because I kept my sword very sharp.

So I think it's not easy to use a single standard to apply on all situations.

I agree with Lance here, there are just too many factors to determine what would be an adequate hit. I have been in fights where the opponent said he barely felt the attack but had bruises later, mainly a testament to adrenaline i think. Its true that not hurting your partner but still getting a solid hit is a fine balance. We tried using a "referee" but it was to hard to see and judge every move. Usually we watch from a videotape later and determine what would have been the result of the shot.... slowing it down helps tremendously. But there are always some who either swing too hard from the shoulders or do flick wrist action even when they know better and have demonstrated that knowledge in test cutting. I think for most it is a big hurdle to get into that killing mindset and forget that it is an ally in front of them. Just my opinion.

[david welch]

I can see people debating over whether or not a hit was good enough to call and how every now and then a good hit won't get called. But how often do you let a completely inadequate hit get called good?

[jeremy pace]

I can see people debating over whether or not a hit was good enough to call and how every now and then a good hit won't get called. But how often do you let a completely inadequate hit get called good?

I was looking through some of my old posts and found this. I appologize Mr Welch for not responding... I assure you it was not intentional as the subject is a good one!

Ultimately, we determine if a shot was good based off of a combination (triangulation method) of the honor system and observers. Sparring in earnest is only done with 3 or more people present so that if a shot is debated between the two for whatever reason (like striking with flats or not enough power) then we ask the spectators which are fellow swordsmen and have a trained eye. Really though, we are all friends and all looking to improve ourselves. If the fellow you are fighting has thicker skin and states your blows arent enough to cut it then oblige him with some harder strokes. He asked for it right? Personally I hate hearing that i swing "too" hard. To adequately reproduce battle then you have to be prepared to recieve and give a blow. Get better protection or padded weapons (all of which we use) to brunt the blow, but you shouldnt have to pull anything for anyone.

By the by... have you seen Lance's Test cutting video against the pork arm? Nuff said.

[david welch]

That's OK.

This post was started to help new people learn why they can't hold a sword out in front of them and wave it back and forth and expect to get any results like that. I am afraid that what it is now talking about has nothing to do with the original intent.

I don't see how I was advocating hitting weakly, and I am pretty sure the people in knoxville were never accused of that. If someone wants to call shots waved from the wrist as good, I suppose that is their prerogative but I don't see why they would want to, or what they would gain from it.

By the by... have you seen Lance's Test cutting video against the pork arm? Nuff said.

Yes, I have seen them.

We buy pig arms and shoulders in bulk for our test cutting. We regularly cut on them covered in cloth, leather and felt. I believe we have a pretty good idea of what would actually do damage in an actual fight, and what wouldn't.

[Jake_Norwood]

Yeah...the Knoxville guys definitely don't hit light.

Jake

[John_Clements]

Interesting discussion. I attended Guy Windsor's longsword class at ISMAC a few weeks back and he twice pointed out that the sword doesn't need to be moving very forcefully to do its job. This thread seems to contradict that. Mr. Windsor didn't have a sharp with him to demonstrate the point visusally. I also don't have a sharp so can't test either way for myself.

But this questions comes up, especially free-sparring with wasters. What constitutes a hit worth stopping for. You clearly don't want to start ignoring any hit except the ones that break your bones but you don't want to stop for nicks and taps either. How do you develop a feel for what constitutes a GOOD hit?

Well, this is the problem with opinions derived from insufficient experience in serious test cutting with a variety of accurate blade types on realistic materials, combined with sufficient experience in handling authentic historical pieces.

When you study the voluminous accounts of sword combat describing injuries and wounds, then compare it with the techniques and fighting instructions in the source works, there's no question hitting hard is important. Human beings do not react well to impacts of sharp blades and even simple edge blows can do significant damage. But, to stop a man trying to do you harm, there's no question they understood you must hit hard.

See our public article here on "Fencing With All Your Strength."

Then see the sparring piece describing "PICT."

One can either practice just to hit with the minimum force necessary for whatever play fighting you conduct, or train to hit as forcibly as the craft required. The problematic issue here is that for some enthusiasts, they want their lowest common denominator to determine what is an "objectively good" blow (i.e., lethal or deblitating) in all mock combat. For the ARMA, on the other hand, we only want to understand how our forebears hit effectively, and then emmulate them.


JC