Goliath

[GaryGrzybek]

Hi all,

I was working with a new potential member this weekend and he mentioned the use of a very strange guard or technique that I have only seen once in the manuals. It appears in Goliath as two combatants facing each other holding their swords in a position that resembles that of sweeping a floor with reversed grip and point facing straight down . He mentioned that some folks use it in the SCA as a parry but as a waiting position it seems very weak. I was not sure what to tell him and have since become very curious about it's application.

Please keep in mind that this thread is not about the SCA but strictly limited to the image as described.

So, who has some insights on this one? <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/45.jpg

[Guest]

If you mean "little finger next to cross", the grip of the drawing is likely not reversed, but you have to look with the nose on the screen to notice it <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> actually they have tumb and index next to cross. This I say presuming your meaning for "inverse grip" is the one used in knife fighting.

[Tony_Indurante]

Gary, it just look like the Schrankhut to me. Perhaps the longer swords or artistic license make it look like sweeping.

[Webmaster]

I agree, this looks like schrankhut to me. The picture demonstrates it on both sides with the hands crossed and uncrossed, but it is highly recommended that you don't cross your hands because it's dangerously weak. You can slide your right (uncrossed) schrankhut across to the left side of your body basically unchanged and make a much stronger parry that way than by crossing your hands. The position is about halfway between iron door and hengen, with the blade more vertical and the pommel held about waist to sternum level, and it is not meant as a static fighting stance.

[GaryGrzybek]

Your right Stacy, I guess it's a bit deceiving in these particular drawings but what he described to me was not schrankut. I am familiar with it but never tried to work with it before. It is my impression that certain SCA folks have adapted it as a static stance which is obviously a mis-interpretation of the technique. I would like to do my best to correct this for them so any additional insight would be helpfull.

Here's another from Mair:

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Mair/96.jpg

[Casper Bradak]

Here's one more akin to what you were talking about from Marozzo. Bottom left of the page, a guardia for use against polearms. I've used it sparring vs. spear and quarterstaff, and it's quite effective in practice http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManuals/Marozzo/p107.jpg" target="_blank">practicehttp://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManuals/Marozzo/p107.jpg</a>

[Scott Anderson]

From my perspective moving the uncrossed right shrankhut to the left side is far weaker than using the crossed left shrankhut bending the left wrist into a position where it's almost impossible for me to keep a grip. This could just be due to my personal body construction, but I also notice that if you parry that way you lose initiative as there is no effective way to return a strike from it, yet the crossed left shrankhut is coiled and ready to strike.

SPA

[steve hick]

Actually the Marozzo one is different and is designed for use against polearms.
Steve

[GaryGrzybek]

Indeed Steve, especially since he's holding the sword at the ricasso.

Something new to play around with <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Webmaster]

Scott,

Your left wrist really shouldn't bend at all as you shift from right to left uncrossed schrankhut. It should only involve a shift in your shoulders and elbows as you sweep across your body a little bit like a broom. You don't have to move it very far, just from in front of one leg to in front of the other. I do find it less awkward with a right leg lead than with a left leg lead.

Defensively, the crossed position is adequate if the parry is made with the strong, but if your opponent hits your weak in that position, your arms can be very easily twisted further and it is almost unrecoverable. If your hands are uncrossed on the left, you should have somewhat better leverage, and knocking your point away only pushes you back toward a position you can cut from.

As for follow-up actions, the only effective strike I can find from the crossed hands position directly is to unwind the arms to the left ochs position for a false edge strike or thrust over the top (depending on how you're holding your hands, this might turn into a true edge strike for you, but I don't believe it should). An unterhau from there would be too weak to slice through a sweatsock, let alone heavy wool clothing or armor. You could raise it to the crossed hengen position for an oberhau, but that involves an extra movement.

The right uncrossed schrankhut allows for a slightly stronger, albeit short, unterhau, or the point can be turned up for a thrust, or you can raise or lower the blade between iron door and hengen as necessary to press and close, or of course raise into an oberhau from the hengen.

The offensive options for the left uncrossed schrankhut are slightly fewer, but you can quickly turn it into a strong belly thrust with or without flipping it over into a boar's tooth guard, or turn it into a false edge cut to the arms from boar's tooth, or very quickly and smoothly raise it to left ochs, where you gain more options.

I hope this helps you out. I think if you practice it a bit and try to work out the stuff I described, you'll see what I mean, regardless of how you're built. This is one of those that's kind of subtle, I think, but not impossible to describe. We've worked on it recently here in Houston, so I should be pretty close to what JC is teaching on this. If not, I'm sure I'll get called to the floor...

[Scott Anderson]

I'll readily admit that I may be doing it wrong, but I just can't maintain a decent grip with an uncrossed left shrankhut. From the crossed left shrankhut I can throw quite a few fairly powerful strikes (see my posts on recovering from a missed krumphau in the meisterhauen thread). Thanks for helping, discussing things here, even if it is rather hard to describe things accurately in text only, helps me work through things I may only have a vague idea on how to do.

SPA

[Webmaster]

The first Goliath picture listed here actually shows the hand positions very accurately, but it's tougher to determine the exact foot and body positions from the way it's drawn. If you make it to the big event we can work it out there; otherwise ask JC next time he's in Utah.

Also, try sliding your grip from the side of your pommel around to the end of it more with your palm facing the flat more than the edge. If you're gripping it how I think you are, this might make it more comfortable in schrankhut. Your hands have to be able to slide around a bit on the handle to get the most out of some techniques, don't always hold it in the tennis racket grip.

[claus drexler]

hi lads and lassies,

the picture mentioned in Goliath describes the position “schrankhut”.
the first question is not, which thrusts or cuts can be possibly executed from this “weird” position, the first question should be: what is this position used for.
and to get an impression about its usage you have to necessarily read and understand the text.
and not only Goliaths text, also the contents of Ringeck, Danzig, Jud Lew...
otherwise – with only looking at some pictures – you will never get the right impression of that secondary fighting position.

the Schrankhut is a position to ease the use of the Krumphau against Ober- and Unterhaue of your opponent. (the Krumphau is a special Oberhau – that is “usually” started from the position “vom Tag” – Hanko Doebringer, 1389(or whoever wrote that HS. 3227a), Fol. 25v).
the schrankhut is not meant to execute thrusts, Unterhaue, what ever…!

the Schrankhut is a lower position and so far a variation of Alber (as we know this position according to Ringeck, Danzig, Lew).
Danzig (!) wrote that the Schrankhut on the right side should be performed with the true edge up, wrists not crossed. False edge up on the left side, the wrists are crossed. but how to perform the schrankhut is really not important, when it comes to principles.
the principle of the schrankhut is: put the point on the floor to which side you want, create an opening on your left or right side and when the opponent strikes at you, you react with versetzen.

in the context of the Krumphau the Schrankhut is used on the first sight more defensive than offensive.

1) the defensive way is to execute the Krumphau against an Oberhau or Unterhau.
Possible follow-ups in the binding might be: a thrust, a cut to the head, to close in.
the goal is to gain the “Vor”.

2) the offensive way is to attack an opponent with the krumphau starting in the schrankhut when he remains in the position ochs.

how to execute the Krumphau out of the Schrankhut can be found best in the manual of Danzig… or in the book &amp; video that Hans Heim, Alexander Kiermayer and myself are going to compose. (commercial, commercial… smile..).

cheers,
Claus
________________________________
"Ochs - historische Kamfpkünste e.V."
Ochs-website
Member of HEMAC

[steve hick]

Claus, is the book going to be in English?javascript:void(0)
wink Is this focused on technical aspects across the corpus of German works, or a specific manual?
Steve

[Webmaster]

Claus,

Thanks for the technical input. I was more focused on the "how" than the "why". When I say not to cross the hands on the left side, I'm following JC's recommendation along with my own discomfort in crossing the hands that way, but if the manuals say that it is meant to create an opportunity for a krumphau, then I can see the point of crossing the hands. I just feel that there are too few other ways to effectively attack from that position to make it one that I would use commonly. The uncrossed schrankhut allows me to set aside a blow from either side of the body and gives me more options for counterattacking.

Interesting point about attacking the ochs from schrankhut with the krumphau, I'll have to give that a try. I look forward to seeing that book of yours when it comes out.