Longsword Thrusting

[Erich Wagner]

When thrusting with a longsword against unarmored opponents, should the blade be horizontal or vertical? Does it matter? It seems that a horizontal blade would more easily penetrate a rib cage. Has anyone tried this against a side of beef or a deer carcass?

Thanks,
Erich

[GaryGrzybek]

Hi Erich,

I have yet to see any historical documentation advocating the blade being turned flat in the thrust but it could very well be true. At least no one has pointed it out to me (no pun intended).

For me it seems there is a natural tendency to turn the blade at a 45 degree angle as I extend into the thrust. In my honest opinion, whether the blade is vertical, horizontal or diagonal it's going to pass through the ribcage and as we know a lethal wound only needs to penetrate a few inches.

[Randall Pleasant]

Fellow scholars

In the following image from <u>Goliath</u> the sword sticking out the back of the man on the left is verticle.

<img src="http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/78.jpg" width="800" height="800" >

[GaryGrzybek]

What's your feeling on this Randall?

I also forgot to mention that depending on the angle of the thrust (i.e. from above, below, side, ect.) the blade would likely be oriented in many different ways so it really wouldn't matter then.

More thoughts please <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Randall Pleasant]

What's your feeling on this Randall?

I find that when I thrust without any type of blade contact that my hands naturally turn the blade horizontal. I'm not saying this is right, just that it is natural for me. Thrusting from an Ochs with blade contact I find that I usually keep the blade verticle.

[GaryGrzybek]

So we have a simalar viewpoint, it depends really on how the thrust is employed.

[Matt Easton]

There are thrusts in Talhoffer '67 and '59 which appear to be entering from Ochs with a 45 degree alignment.
From my perspective, in Fiore's Longa or Breve the blade is vertical, however, if you thrust from Fenestra to Longa then the blade revolves from true edge up to true edge down, so depending upon which point in that movement the blade enters, that will give you differing results. In practice though, in Fiore, I find the blade usually enters vertically. Course, that doesn't stop you twisting it before pulling it out! <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

Matt

[Guest]

We were playing around with thrusting from Ochs last weekend at our training session. Although I disagreed at first, I now agree with my training partners, that when thrusting from Ochs, It feels more comfortable and powerful to rotate slightly from the vertical to perhaps a 45 degree angle when thrusting to the upper openings. When thrusting from Pflug, I generally keep the blade vertical as I thrust. When thrusting from a winding, you will probably go in at all kinds of weird angles, depending on blade pressure and alignment. I think a sharp, 3 pound, accutely tapered longsword thrust, delivered with some weight behind it is going to penetrate regardless of alignment although it will be easier if you happen to slip between the bones. My favorite target for a thrust is the face. Nothing says "game over" like like a sword point in the eye.

[Guest]

To me that thrusting position seems like an adaptation of the german-swiss pike thrust, from above the shoulder that is (Italians kept the pike lower at waist level), that blow with the pike is known to be very powerful and was used against plate.
It should keep a lot of power with great swords too, expecially with the left hand on the pommel, turning the right hand would render this paricular blow mechanically weaker I think.
Carlo

[Webmaster]

For some useful images of thrusts from a right ochs (crossed hands), see Paulus Hector Mair:

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Mair/33.jpg

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Mair/35.jpg

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Mair/44.jpg

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Mair/54.jpg

There are also several pictures of thrusts from left ochs which are clearly drawn from different angles.

[Randall Pleasant]

Stacy

I think image 35 shows a Krumphau counter against an Ochs rather than a thrust from an Ochs.