Training, equipment, and beginnings (long)

[Benjamin Smith]

Well this new group of mine has had a long stuttering start over the last five months. I've been teaching longsword and have one dedicated student and a few fair weather comers. The point is that some of the new people have interests beyond my experience, some of which I would be willing to move into, provided they accept an introduction to ARMA, its methodology, techniques, and some background in the better known Western Martial Arts, so that we can talk on the same page. While being some months off, I would like to get some preparation underway. However, the difficulty lies in that some of what they are interested in I have very limited options to begin with, and no equipment.

First off, these people are dedicated medieval reenactors with little/no real experience in treating the subject as a martial art. Having said that, some of them are genuinely interested, and some want to learn how to use weaponry that I have little/no background in. I know of no easily available manuals, little literature, and only vague pictures, covering sword and shield, axe, or warhammer, varieties of which can be found all throughout the Renaissance Europe.

While I can make extrapolations on the subject from my experience with other weaponry (sword and buckler, longsword, etc...), I'm wondering if there would be a better place to start than trying to take the fighting I've learned with one weapon and say: "Well technique X should translate fairly closely. Test it with wasters, sparring, and test cutting (blunts will be completely out of the question for years, and it is unlikely I will still be here by the time anyone is ready to take them up), and say "This experiment seems to indicate that technique X with weapon Y works thus with weapon Z." Then report the results here for feedback. The long drawn out process of amateur application of the scientific method seems to be the only resource available to me.

The problem is exacerbated by the fact that I have no equipment available for the pursuit of any such activity. As a matter of fact, I had Hollow Earth marked as a place to go for leather axes and such. However, when I looked online today I found that they no longer offer anything but swords of various varieties. Which draws out a very problematic point, I have to recommend that they make any material that they might intend to use, and I don't even have designs to offer, except on sheild construction.

One final question: If it is the case that there is little/no solid historical material to start from, and I therefore can't make any claim to real historical accuracy, what do I claim about anything I might come up with? That it appears to be the most martially effective option that I can invent? I couldn't justify anything more than that, and that alone extends into the very realms of speculation that we regularly repudiate, and laugh at, from the scholarly and boffer community. The one point in my favor, which bears some thought, is that I'm a rated member of ARMA. I've been studying western martial arts since 2000, and I adhere rigorously to the principles and methodology that ARMA espouses, as opposed to making up everything wholesale, without regard to historical accuracy, study, science, discipline, peer-evaluation, or any other standard. The truth of the matter is that if anyone moves into this realm of little known fighting and weaponry, it ought to be someone from ARMA.

So thanks for getting through the rant, any help will, as usual, be greatly appreciated.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Ben

Well all of the principle's of the longsword apply to fighting in general, I have no personnel knowledge of any warhammer manual's, I know PH Mair has some very unique weapon's in his manual there are a few poleaxe manual's/part's of manual's Talhoffer, Le Jue De hache(SP?) Codex Wallerstien, Joachim Meyer to name a few.

I would try to start them on LS first and then they can move into other weapon's on there own if they would like, I basicly am only teaching LS and wrestling, I do want to move to some S&B I would not be comfortable teaching it in and of itself.

Just my 2 cent's worth.

Jeff

[Jaron Bernstein]

Have you been to a 1.0 yet? If not, make that your first stop.

[J. F. McBrayer]

IMO, and just IMO, you should probably look at what they are interested in, and steer them away from that to the closest thing for which we have existing treatises. For example, and as mentioned above, steer them away from short warhammer to pollaxe. For pollaxe there are plenty of sources that are readily available (Fiore, Vadi, Jeu de la Hache, and presumably plenty of L-tradition stuff).

It's probably reasonable for someone experienced in a system like Liechtenauer's or Fiore's to extrapolate within that system to other weapons, but I don't think you'd be doing new students a favour by starting them out on that. At best it would be like someone starting sport fencing wanting to start out on sabre rather than foil; at worst it would be not much better than SCA combat --- not because that's what you'd be teaching, but because without the same background that you have, that's what they'd be learning. IMO, start them on longsword (or better, abrazare, as Fiore does) to teach them principles, then move them to spear or pollaxe as soon as they have a grasp on the basics of the system you're teaching in.

[Allen Johnson]

good points Jason.

When people are begining, alot of it is about principals and body mechanics. Principals like distance and timing translate to all weapons from dagger, to longsword, to axe to the kitchen sink. Once people understand the nature of the fight, how a body needs to move and the principals involved, they will be in a better place to make educated decisions on areas where the manuals dont exist or evidence is scarce.

[Benjamin Smith]

Well thanks guys, any other help will be appreciated. It will be a while before I can scrape enough support($$$) together to throw a NTP 1.0 for them (I've been to four, learned something new each time). Hopefully I can convince them to work with what we've got access to, before moving into anything unfamiliar or without decent source material. Probably the only sources available for most of their interests are paintings and tapestries, whose value is always somewhat dubious, but it would be a start. Like I said, it would be months down the line at the earliest, that I would allow anything along those lines would progress. I'm just trying to get answers to questions formed in my head before they ask them.

Even if I was to move into poleaxe (much less other weaponry) with the proper safety equipment, I still need the poleaxe equivalent of a waster, which apparently is no longer offered by anyone other than boycotted sources. My previous experience at sword waster making has been problematic. In this instance I'd probably need some kind of softer material for the head, leather or rubber, and a way to keep it in place. Any advice here?

Thanks again

[Jaron Bernstein]

Will they refuse to train in longsword? It is the base of our curriculum and you are more familiar with it.

[Gene Tausk]

Well this new group of mine has had a long stuttering start over the last five months. I've been teaching longsword and have one dedicated student and a few fair weather comers. The point is that some of the new people have interests beyond my experience, some of which I would be willing to move into, provided they accept an introduction to ARMA, its methodology, techniques, and some background in the better known Western Martial Arts, so that we can talk on the same page. While being some months off, I would like to get some preparation underway. However, the difficulty lies in that some of what they are interested in I have very limited options to begin with, and no equipment.

First off, these people are dedicated medieval reenactors with little/no real experience in treating the subject as a martial art. Having said that, some of them are genuinely interested, and some want to learn how to use weaponry that I have little/no background in. I know of no easily available manuals, little literature, and only vague pictures, covering sword and shield, axe, or warhammer, varieties of which can be found all throughout the Renaissance Europe.

While I can make extrapolations on the subject from my experience with other weaponry (sword and buckler, longsword, etc...), I'm wondering if there would be a better place to start than trying to take the fighting I've learned with one weapon and say: "Well technique X should translate fairly closely. Test it with wasters, sparring, and test cutting (blunts will be completely out of the question for years, and it is unlikely I will still be here by the time anyone is ready to take them up), and say "This experiment seems to indicate that technique X with weapon Y works thus with weapon Z." Then report the results here for feedback. The long drawn out process of amateur application of the scientific method seems to be the only resource available to me.

The problem is exacerbated by the fact that I have no equipment available for the pursuit of any such activity. As a matter of fact, I had Hollow Earth marked as a place to go for leather axes and such. However, when I looked online today I found that they no longer offer anything but swords of various varieties. Which draws out a very problematic point, I have to recommend that they make any material that they might intend to use, and I don't even have designs to offer, except on sheild construction.

One final question: If it is the case that there is little/no solid historical material to start from, and I therefore can't make any claim to real historical accuracy, what do I claim about anything I might come up with? That it appears to be the most martially effective option that I can invent? I couldn't justify anything more than that, and that alone extends into the very realms of speculation that we regularly repudiate, and laugh at, from the scholarly and boffer community. The one point in my favor, which bears some thought, is that I'm a rated member of ARMA. I've been studying western martial arts since 2000, and I adhere rigorously to the principles and methodology that ARMA espouses, as opposed to making up everything wholesale, without regard to historical accuracy, study, science, discipline, peer-evaluation, or any other standard. The truth of the matter is that if anyone moves into this realm of little known fighting and weaponry, it ought to be someone from ARMA.

So thanks for getting through the rant, any help will, as usual, be greatly appreciated.

I am somewhat confused by your post. If I understand correctly, you are complaining that some members of your group want to move "beyond" the longsword yet you feel uncomfortable leading a study group in these weapons and in any case their are no reliable practice weapons for these other types of weapons. Is this correct?

If this is what you are saying, then I'm even more confused. The longsword is the foundational weapon for ARMA not because it is cool (although it is), but because it is the primary weapon for learning how to use the other weapons. Also, we have a great deal of information from historical source on how to use the weapon so there is no end of ability to lead a class or self-teach from these sources. Even with these sources, there is no end of debate (as this forum can testify).

So why are you complaining that people in your study group want to move "beyond" the longsword? I'm an SFS and I am under no illusions that I have "mastered" this weapon and can look "beyond" it. I will go so far as to say there is no one in ARMA who will say they have "mastered" the longsword and we have some bloody good practitioners in this organization. So if people in your study group cannot take the time and effort to understand the longsword and seem to be easily bored, why are they in your study group? (Once again, I don't know if this is what you are saying, but this is what I am picking up). A person who uses the longsword soon realizes that no matter how many answers one has, there are always more questions.

The Houston Southsiders "concentrates" on Petter's wrestling system and dagger fighting, but every class we practice with the longsword. Every class. And, it will continue to be that way.

When we practice with sword and buckler, or sword and dagger, or staff, or even shortsword, we are able to use the principles we have discovered from longsword fighting. This is hardly a revelation since this is something the fechtmeisters discovered long before I was born.

So, if these fly-by-night people want to move on, let them. Longsword study is a discipline. You can't be like a kid in a candy store and say "ooohhh, I want that. Ooohhh, I want this" every time when the basics of the longsword are not practiced every class, not to mention sparring.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hmmm...well, as Gene says, keep longsword on the curriculum. You might look at staff to branch out if so inclined. As Meyer says, it is , "the basis of all long weapons" (pg. 249 Forgeng translation) so you should be doing that before the the pole weapon family. One nice thing about staff is they are relatively easy to acquire and there are plenty of detailed manuals for it (Meyer, Swetnam, Ringeck's spear, Silver and of course Lindholm's book spring to mind).

On the issue of periodic people, I wouldn't structure your training around them. Either they want to train and read the manuals or not. That is their choice of how to spend time and not your concern. There is nothing wrong in doing things in addition to longsword (say if there is a strong interest by committed people in rapier, staff or whatever) once everyone has some understanding of longsword (we do daggers and grappling all the time, from the manuals and with the ARMA method), but the catch here is committed people.

[J. F. McBrayer]

Even if I was to move into poleaxe (much less other weaponry) with the proper safety equipment, I still need the poleaxe equivalent of a waster, which apparently is no longer offered by anyone other than boycotted sources.

Revival offers a rubber pollaxe head.

The suggestion to get them doing staff is a good one, I think, though. There's an abundance of historical documents on staff, plus a few good modern interpretations.

[Benjamin Smith]

Sorry Gene, I took my rant too far. I apologize.

I hope I didn't misrepresent myself. I've never moved into any of the things I've talked about. I've taught longsword here since August and nothing else, and of course I'll keep teaching it. That's why I came here on the forum, for advice on how to answer questions and address intrests that are less well developed than ARMA's longsword curriculum. I'm trying to be prepared to address them in an educated manner.

Thank you for the advice, especially about committed people, moving into other material, and the site on poleaxe heads, which will probably stay on the shelf for quite some time.

[david welch]

You have people interested in other things than longsword and you are all unhappy about it?

Why don't you just send them off with the right source material and tell them after the next meetings longsword work, they have to show everybody what they have learned?

Unless you are just way more experienced than everybody in your group you don't have to be the "instructor". A lot of times a study group leader gets more done as the "coordinator" of the group. Hell, find something you are interested in and assign studying it to them as homework.

[Keith Culbertson]

I agree with Allen and Gene that the principles of fighting in general need to be exercised well, certainly through Longsword, grappling/dagger (and staff too as others mentioned), since those basics lead to most all other weapons. I often practice with different weapons I own (axes, mace, flail, etc...) when I want to despite the absence of direct manual training because anyone can learn the difference in momentum and control of various weapons once they get moving. Urge these people to become a fighter with the ARMA/manual basics and then it is possible to adapt to any weapon, no matter how alien it might seem at first (such as, say, a Batleth--most half sword techniques apply, but then there is even more to be discovered...). And by all means do not become a slave to others, but encourage shared contributions to the group through good scholarship presented.

best,

[Randall Pleasant]

Benjamin

I would highly suggest not referring to yourself as "instructor" and the other members of your study group as "students". It implies a relationship that does not really exist. All study group members should be learning from their fellow study group members. Thus, in reference to yourself and other members of your study group it is best to use the term "scholar". The title ""instructor" is usually reserved for those with the rank of Senior Free Scholars and above or to someone actually teaching a class at an event.

If someone is a white shirt, ie. has not pay their membership fee and has not yet been approved by the director, then they should work on longsword only. The policy is to allow white shirts only three visits, after that point they either need to become members or go their way.

Once ARMA members in your study group have a good understanding of the longsword and want to learn other weapons then don't be afraid to let them take the lead in that study. In fact, you should encourage it. In such cases your role as the study group leader should be to make sure that (1) the weapons they want to study are indeed Renaissance and/or Medieval weapons and are of European origin (no smallsword, saber, katanas, bowie knifes, etc.), (2) their study is based upon historical materials, and (3) their study is conducted following the ARMA Method of study.

[Benjamin Smith]

Thank you everyone for the help, reccomendations, and correction, I'll start making the changes immediately. Thank you for pointing out the reference to myself as an instructor Randall, I didn't realize I'd done that in the post, I've never gone by a title of any kind, at any meeting, I won't do that again.