Fighting with two swords?

[Keith Culbertson]

Found our viking source for two swords.

It's from the Droplaugarsona Saga.
"Grim had two swords, because Gaus knew how to blunt sword edges. Grim fought equally well with both hands. He raised one sword with his left hand and struck with the right at Gaus, taking off one of his legs above the knee. Now Gaus fell down and in that moment swung his sword at Grim so that it hit his leg, making more of a shearing than a biting wound. Now the Viking ran away, but Grim took the silver and acquired great renown from this deed."

It is unusual that someone can fight equally well in both hands. Note that he still was injured enough to take him away from the fight despite the two swords.

Egils saga describes someone carrying two swords to a duel. One in a scabbard and one in his hands. Multiple shields were common as well at these duels as ones became too chopped up to use.

_____________________

Aha! Thank you for this quote---and there is the key----it may be unusual and difficult for most people, but some us either are ambidextrous or have trained to be so and therefore are comfortable with case of 'anything' in fact. So, rather than dismiss an idea for lack of evidence, train hard and discover whether you have the ability to cope with the movements necessary to make it work. I have and I succeed rather well against any combination.
Please remember that the rarity of such skill probably precluded any formal inclusion of such material within valuable manual space, and also that we have only a tiny fraction of potential representative manuals. It is not a mistake to think outside of a box, only to continue after the theory is actually proven to be flawed.

cheers

[Matt_Conner]

At the Battle of Clontarf in 1014, Brian Boru's son Murchad is said to have gone to battle carrying and using two swords. Stories have him leading the battle from the front, carving up the Norse pretty well and felling Sigurd of Orkney by cutting his helmet strap with his right blade and striking the exposed head with the left before his swords broke and he was mortally wounded. Exactly what type of sword they were is unknown, but likely either the fairly short Celtic type or a Norse sword are obviously the most likely candidates, both of which are short enough that it could be done pretty well. For any kind of cutting attacks, shorter blades would seem to be much easier to use for the technique, as in the Philipino art of Escrima/Kali where the double stick manuevers are sometimes (and relatively easily) adapted to two short swords.

[Richard Strey]

Keith,
I don't think there are many "quality" members of the WMA community who would forthright dismiss two-sword combat as it is mentioned in those manuals. It is the "you should be proficient with a single weapon in each hand first" part that keeps us from trying it.
Once more: The masters of old said there were only a few who could do it and that "as it is, most people have enough to do with getting it right one-handed" (paraphrasing from Sutor, here). I know of *no one* in the community claiming to have reached master level. No one in Germany, no one in ARMA, not Jake, not John. There are very skilled individuals among us and the fact that they still rank themselves as students gets them praise, and rightly so.
Now it comes down to logic: If there's no one here of "master-level" and only very few of the masters of old could use a case of Rapiers/Swords effectively, how many do you think are there today? Over the years, I've sparred with hundreds of people, self trained and students of various martial arts from all over the world. Beginners to 2nd Dans (maybe more, but then they didn't tell), with steel, wood and padded weapons. In close to full harness to gambeson & mask, to streetwear. And *never ever* did a fighter using a case of weapons come out on top of any of those meetings, even if he/she was the best with a single weapon.

[Mike Cartier]

well speaking as someone who has trained for a few years in a dual sword art (KALI) i can say that yes it certainly possible. But only under certain circumstances.

For example a Filipino bolo or a machete is small enough to use 2 at the same time, but a Dusack for example is a much more power striking oriented type of art so it really doesn't suit the Dusack though on the surface you might think they are similar.

It does take a bit of training to use 2 weapons in unison skillfully.

i don't see any western swords that this would be effectiver with however, perhaps falchions or messers but even then what i said about Dusack applies to them i think.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Everybodies comments have been interesting and the topic is illuminating.

I only have a conjecture to offer:
I would guess that if the Norse example of double weapons, in particular, is true, then it seems to me that it would have been a sword & a modest sized sax, or even two such saxes. The latter pairing would then be like the double dao we see in the Chinese arts. I am not saying that they would have been doing wushu stuff -- just that two moderate-sized single-edged weapons lend themselves better to mutual wielding.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

To make it clear, I'm researching this because I'd like to know whether there are certain rules that distinguish the methods of fighting with two swords from those of single-sword or sword-and-buckler. So far it seems that only one hard and fast rule has surfaced: in order to use such a setup effectively, the fighter must first be equally proficient in the handling of the weapon in both hands.

I'm not planning to acquire the skills myself, because I'm strongly right-handed when it comes to swordsmanship. When I hold something in the off-hand it's usually a horse's reins.

In any case both Di Grassi and Manciolino (and perhaps Marozzo, although I haven't seen his specific comments on the use of two swords) seem to use more false-edge blows with two swords than in single sword. Can anybody confirm or deny this impression? Given the caveat of my limited experience, I may be seeing something that's not there, and I'm most familiar with the methods of George Silver--who seem to have used the false-edge cut a great deal less than the Italian masters.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

And *never ever* did a fighter using a case of weapons come out on top of any of those meetings, even if he/she was the best with a single weapon.

So, in short, your conclusion is that the lack of true ambidexterity in your opponents prevents even the novelty of facing two swords at once from making a serious impact upon you?

[Logan Weed]

Chinese warriors didn't do Wushu stuff either

[LafayetteCCurtis]

well speaking as someone who has trained for a few years in a dual sword art (KALI) i can say that yes it certainly possible. But only under certain circumstances.

Hm. If so, then, could you give your opinion on where this system differs from the use of a single bolo/machete?

[J. F. McBrayer]

So, you need an orderly system of attack and defense and you need to drill this system until your weapons work independently without further thought.

The Manciolino section linked to above is quite interesting in that regard. It places quite a few limits on your actions to make the use of two swords more manageable.

[Allen Johnson]

I would guess that if the Norse example of double weapons, in particular, is true, then it seems to me that it would have been a sword & a modest sized sax, or even two such saxes.

The source that I have shows pretty clearly that the original words used here are certainly 'sword' and not 'sax'. Both terms are pretty well documented. However the big issue is IF we can believe the Norse tales. I dont see this occurence as an impossibility, just a very rare one.

[Richard Strey]

And *never ever* did a fighter using a case of weapons come out on top of any of those meetings, even if he/she was the best with a single weapon.

So, in short, your conclusion is that the lack of true ambidexterity in your opponents prevents even the novelty of facing two swords at once from making a serious impact upon you?

No, what I am saying is that
a) I have yet to meet a fighter who was more proficient using two weapons of same lenght as opposed to another historically more common system.
b) It is my training that keeps the "novelty" from having an impact. There are only so many things two weapons held by two hands attached to the same body can do. There are no "tricks" in combat.
Not more, not less.

[Allen Johnson]

Someone said, ' If exotic weapons (or forms) were practical, they wouldn't be exotic'

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Someone said, ' If exotic weapons (or forms) were practical, they wouldn't be exotic'

Very true. Though even if they weren't really that effective in combat, they might still make quite an impressive display in choreographed fight sequences--as somebody has mentioned earlier in this thread.

[Allen Johnson]

Unfortunatley very little of what you see on stage & screen impresses at all once you take the time to think about what these two fighters are trying to do. Take the fact that very few films or plays portray just one sword benig used accuratley, much less two. Combine that with the fact that most actors have next to no experience with weapons and are trained in what you see by fight directors where historical accuracy and legitimate martial intent usually takes a deep back seat to directors wishes or what ever they think "looks cool". Hardly impressive in my book.