Talhoffer 1459

[JeffGentry]

Gent's

Thought i would post a link to this Talhoffer 1459 Manual it is not tanslated it does have some great illustration's.

http://flaez.ch/talhoffer/


Jeff

[Justin Lompado]

Its pretty nice. Too bad its useless like that to me......

[Brian Hunt]

Mmmmm,

Transcription -

Yummy.

Now I can start really looking at this manual.

Thanks.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Travis Beamon]

Wow that is indeed very cool

Now if only I read german I could figure out what in the heck is going on these sets of plates.





Why is there a hole in the ground and why is he fighting with what looks like a medieval sack of door knobs?

Any help?

[Michael Olsen]

That is a trial-by-combat between a man and a woman.

From what I read in a book (wish I still had it handy):
The man was put in a hole waist deep and given the club you see there.
The woman was given a rock to put in her sash, which as then tied off.
The man "won" if he got the woman into the hole
The woman "won" if she got the man out of the hole

Again, I wish I still had easy access to the text - that is all I remember. I don't recall their relationship (I would imagine husband and wife), nor the cause for the trial (dispute?). Anyone with more specific information, please enlighten us.

Edit: I believe the text I read this from was Mark Rector's Medieval Combat: A Fifteenth-Century Illustrated Manual of Swordfighting and Close-Quarter Combat, Green Hill Books, 2000.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Great site. The illustrations do particularly well at explaining some concepts I've been puzzling about in the sections on mounted fighting.

[Mars Healey]

Thanks for the link. It's great to see those plates in color. My book is all black and white.

Some of those weapons are wild.

[Logan Weed]

They're advancing in giant thimbles.

[Jaron Bernstein]

This is great stuff! Thanks.

[Craig Peters]

In plate 77 recto it appears that the combatant on the left has thrown his hat as a method of distracting his opponent- does the German text indicate this?

http://base.kb.dk/pls/hsk_web/hsk_vis.side?p_hs_loebenr=2&p_sidenr=157&p_illnr=0&p_frem=20&p_tilbage=4&p_navtype=rel&p_lang=eng

[Will Adamson]

That is a trial-by-combat between a man and a woman.

From what I read in a book (wish I still had it handy):
The man was put in a hole waist deep and given the club you see there.
The woman was given a rock to put in her sash, which as then tied off.
The man "won" if he got the woman into the hole
The woman "won" if she got the man out of the hole

Again, I wish I still had easy access to the text - that is all I remember. I don't recall their relationship (I would imagine husband and wife), nor the cause for the trial (dispute?). Anyone with more specific information, please enlighten us.

Edit: I believe the text I read this from was Mark Rector's Medieval Combat: A Fifteenth-Century Illustrated Manual of Swordfighting and Close-Quarter Combat, Green Hill Books, 2000.

I don't think this was meant as a specific episode but rather an illustration of possible techniques that the nobleman could teach to a subject who was going to be involved in one of these judicial combats.

I seem to remember a plate showing how to defeat a lance with a sword on horseback. Uuuh...I'm not sure I'd want to test that one.

[Martin Wallgren]

In plate 77 recto it appears that the combatant on the left has thrown his hat as a method of distracting his opponent- does the German text indicate this?

http://base.kb.dk/pls/hsk_web/hsk_vis.side?p_hs_loebenr=2&p_sidenr=157&p_illnr=0&p_frem=20&p_tilbage=4&p_navtype=rel&p_lang=eng

Yes!

[Michael Olsen]

I don't think this was meant as a specific episode but rather an illustration of possible techniques that the nobleman could teach to a subject who was going to be involved in one of these judicial combats.

Right. I was trying to respond in generalities: my impression from the book was that this use of the hole, choice of weapons, and goals of combat was a standard or at least common format of a man/woman dispute. I didn't mean to say that it was a single recorded event, but was trying to present the general circumstances surrounding such occasions.

I was and am still curious as to the "cause for fighting" that may lead to a dispute like this though, and I think that portion of my post may have been poorly phrased.

[JeffGentry]

I don't think this was meant as a specific episode but rather an illustration of possible techniques that the nobleman could teach to a subject who was going to be involved in one of these judicial combats.

Right. I was trying to respond in generalities: my impression from the book was that this use of the hole, choice of weapons, and goals of combat was a standard or at least common format of a man/woman dispute. I didn't mean to say that it was a single recorded event, but was trying to present the general circumstances surrounding such occasions.

I was and am still curious as to the "cause for fighting" that may lead to a dispute like this though, and I think that portion of my post may have been poorly phrased.

Michael

There is a good article by Jeffrey Hull, On Talhofer's causes for fighting, In the article's and essay's section.

Jeff