ReMA vs. MMA

[Jake_Norwood]

Jake, did you guys really practice grappling with a stun gun as you described? Lol!

*I* haven't (yet...mine's on order), but it *is* common practice at the combatives school come levels two and three.

Jake

[JeanryChandler]

I agree with everything you said mike. Now when you talk about attitude, it also makes me think of another aspect of fighting, which has been a very imporatant part of the Western Martial Tradition though history, but miltiary historians and martial arts people hate to talk about: Booze.

Liquid courage has played an important role in the attitude component of a fight among others going back to the late neolithic at least (beaker culture..)

Just a thought...

(Hic)

Jeanry

[Joachim Nilsson]

I have always enjoyed watching people in hand to hand combat, i always stop to watch people fighting (and apply encouragement).
I've seen quite a few karate / kung fu guys get thier asses whooped myself. But there are badasses in every art, if they apply what they learn in the proper environment and keep an open mind. Add a little technique to an experienced street fighter and he becomes very dangerous. But i have seen alot of pure street fighters get taken to town by boxers because the strret fighters had a one dimensional game and couldn't take the fight out of the phase that the boxer wanted to fight in. All depends on the guys involved and how they train really. The attitude of the guys fighting is as important as what they train, if they are dead set to injure you at any cost they more than likely will.

I totally agree.

[Jason_Daub]

Jeanry,
You have hit that one right on the head. Many military historians seem reluctant to acknowledge that alcohol has played a large part in combat for a long while. Keegan and Holmes in Soldiers make mention of this in the section on Fighting Spirit

[JeffGentry]

Hey Guy's

I've seen and participated in a few drunken brawl's as a Marine, it's good training.

Jeff

[Logan Weed]

Columbus Ohio? Perhaps I know you Jeff.

A few ARMA guys used our studio on N. High for sunday practices a while ago. It's entirely reasonable you were one of them.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Yup, that was us. We have since moved to the OSU campus for economic and other reasons. I still have fond memories of that big fluffy crash pad for throws though! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[William Savage]

The attitude of the guys fighting is as important as what they train, if they are dead set to injure you at any cost they more than likely will.

Man is that true! In my first real fight i went in confident from my baoxing training, and got my ass kicked. The second fight i was blindsided by multiple guys, for a second i didnt know i was on the grownd but i was pissedoff and a bit scaired and ended up kicking more ass than I could have hoped for <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Mike Cartier]

Man is that true! In my first real fight i went in confident from my baoxing training, and got my ass kicked.

Thats why I firmly beleive in introducing as much chaos as possible into martial training, the more chaos you have to deal with, that is uncontrolled situations , the more you can handle it when chaos hits for real.

[LynGrey]

Well as someone said... there are 3 stages of a fight.. there are 3 types of fighers... Strong, Quick, and Smart..... that latter normally the top of the food chain. When i mean smart.. i mean the aware fighter. These guys are the MMA guys that come in with 3-4 arts under their belts and a repitore of techniques.

What people tend to not realize.. is you want to box with a wreslter and wrestle a boxer. You want to take a person down to their obvious weak domain. Morale of hte story is expect to fight in the area you are the weakest. That and if you have skills in all areas.. it makes you that more decptive when it comes down to it... ie you can fient shoots now instead of punches... kicks and punches instead of shoots... the list goes on.

Thats why I firmly beleive in introducing as much chaos as possible into martial training, the more chaos you have to deal with, that is uncontrolled situations , the more you can handle it when chaos hits for real.

There is a great quote i love: "Train as you fight, fight as you train" I like to train for technique just enough to know what it's basics is.. but after I understand it, i ask my partner to do anything different, keep going, don't stop... when i do this.. resist it.. everything you can do.. i like to keep it mixed up.

[Kevin Holmes]

I've been lurking around the boards and reading as much about ringen as much as i could so that i wouldn't be a completel fool. From what i see the argument around the boards is how Modern MMA compares to Ringen i've come to my finaly conclusion. MMA in many ways is today's Ringen.

Ringen was the way to effectively deal with a combatant with the given situation. It evolved in a way which it was most effectively used in the most common environment. That environment was a very uneven, hard, area with a possibly armed opponent. The idea was to use techniques that could bypass any protection of the period

The gun was invented, armor declined, and suddenly people could strike and boxing became larger and was eventually limited by the Queensbury rules (forgive me if I didn't spell it right). Wrestling and Boxing were seperately developed instead of as one and each of them evolved respectively.

Boxing evolved tremondously just by aligning the fists differently, adding different punches and footwork all because of the environment is was put into.

BJJ was an evolutionary step in submission grappling because of the evironment it was introduced to. No longer did you need to worry about somebody pulling a knife on you or wearing armor.

Then MMA came. It has put combat into a new place immediately. it seems that no longer does the average man need to worry about having to fight every time he steps out of his home to run an errand. Now it's mostly competition and developed for such. That is just my theory; however, i will say that there aren't cases where people get mugged, assaulted, or get into fights.

In the end it boils down to who would win. Some people say "an all out brawl." In my gym we keep in mind as if it was an old vale tudo match. However, we do train as it is sanctioned in most of the USA (UFC rules are usually the standard throughout the states for amateur and professional fights) or just grappling tournaments.

This in turn makes me think that the MMA man would win because you are dealing with a potent striker, a good wrestler, and a good submission grappler.

I believe somebody said that orthodox jiujitsu was similar to Ringen and as a MMA fighter i destroyed everyone one after the other. That is just an example though...I have never fought someone whom was proficient in ringen, but i would consider it an honor to do such a thing.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"I believe somebody said that orthodox jiujitsu was similar to Ringen and as a MMA fighter i destroyed everyone one after the other. That is just an example though...I have never fought someone whom was proficient in ringen, but i would consider it an honor to do such a thing.[/quote]"

One problem is that I am not sure we currently have anyone proficient in ringen to the degree needed to compete well in a modern MMA match. Hell, our underestanding of swords is limited and look at how long ARMA has been using longswords. Our ringen practice lags far behind even that. Yes, we have some techniques extracted from the manuals, and maybe even be able to make some of them work "live", but that is vastly different than a modern day Nicholas Petter, Ott the Jew, or Fabien von Aeruswald able to enter the octagon. Much work remains to be done.

To use an example, I would put John C. or several other senior ARMAteers in a match with any swordfighter today (in any sword art) and wager good odds that he could at the very least put on a crebible defense and more likely win. I am far from convinced we have that resurrected that level of unarmed skill in ringen.

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Kevin,

I'd agree with your comparison of MMA as today's Ringen, with the caveat that modern urban combatives (US Army and others), which draw *very* heavily from MMA, are the actual equivalent.

Also, Orthodox Jiu-Jitsu has some similarities to Ringen, but otherwise the statement that they're "similar" hasn't really been true for at least 600 years, when JJ was still a combative for the battlefield. What you see in Ringen and what you learn in JJ have similarities, but not to the degree that I think you might be under the impression of.

Best,

Jake

[Jeff Hansen]

Hi Kevin,

I'd agree with your comparison of MMA as today's Ringen, with the caveat that modern urban combatives (US Army and others), which draw *very* heavily from MMA, are the actual equivalent.

Also, Orthodox Jiu-Jitsu has some similarities to Ringen, but otherwise the statement that they're "similar" hasn't really been true for at least 600 years, when JJ was still a combative for the battlefield. What you see in Ringen and what you learn in JJ have similarities, but not to the degree that I think you might be under the impression of.

Best,

Jake

To elaborate on what (I think ) Jake is saying here and to add my $.02, I have recently had the opportunity to take free self defence classes at my gym from an experienced professional MMA fighter. This has really brought home the differences in intent, and therefore in technique. The basic concept of the fight is the same, that is, any type of attack is allowed and anything flashy but ineffective is quickly weeded out. However, because of the difference of intent it's still apples and oranges.
To illustrate, I'll go through the defence against a basic roundhouse/barfight punch:
The start can be the same in any martial art I've ever seen or heard of- void, get your hands up and block, while his arm's extended grab the wrist. Now, here is where the difference in intent shows up. the MMA guy teaches to go for an arm lock, from which there are a number of options , the most obvious and easiest of which is to lean back and pivot to stess the shoulder and IF (that is the difference right there) you really want to hurt them, you can kick your feet out and break the shoulder. A fairly simple and effective technique.
However, looking at it from a Renn. MA point of view, I don't have to achieve a lock to neutralize my opponent for a period of time to apply graduated pressure or switch to a better hold to force a submission or to decide whether to go further and break the shoulder. To me, everything after he grabs the wrist is a waste of time and energy. The arm is extended... strike the elbow and break it! That's not to say I don't have the utmost respect for MMA, but as I said, the intent is different. Ultimate fighting is a sport. The intent is to win through submission or KO. This is achieved by hurting people, and injuries happen, but they're not the goal. Ringen is war. The intent is to crush, maim, and kill. The whole point is to cause injuries. Apples and oranges.
Of coarse all this is just IMHO.

[Brian Hunt]

Well said Jeff.

Brian Hunt
GFS