Anachronistic cross-training

[Benjamin Smith]

In 1705 near Boston Massachussets Gov. Dudley of the Dominion of New England tried to throw a couple of American farmers off the road as they were transporting something into town. They refused to get off the road and let him pass. He got ticked, left his carriage, drew his sword, and demanded they do so.

Here's where the account gets fuzzy. We don't actually know what they used, if they used anything at all. The Governor almost certainly had a smallsword as part of his uniform, mainly a decoration. The farmers might have had: a staff, knife, hoe, pitchfork, shovel, pruning hook, or gun. What we do know is that the two of them managed to disarm and subdue the Governor. He, in what has become a classic American tradition, sued them for assault. The Boston Assembly threw the case out.

Sources: Sloan, David, "John Campbell and the Boston Newsletter," Wesport CT, Greenwood Press, 1994.

Diary of Samuel Sewall.

[Allen Johnson]

That said, in the South, the NA has a functional equivalent to the fighting schools and fechtbuchs, that the Europeans had...The Aztec/Nautl's had seemingly distinct fighting styles associated with the jaguar/eagle/hummingbird societies, and so did the potecha caravans (who were a hereditary class of sorts...mainly traders and spies, and usually a harbinger of a upcoming flower war).
So the Spanish rapiers, arbalests and such...would have confronted a very developed fighting style when invading Tenochitlan and etc. Obviously well within the parameters of the ARMA period of study. Although it seems that few, if any, Aztec fightbooks survived the flames.

Im a little late getting to this thread but I just wanted to add and ask a few things...

I have been doing ALOT of reading into the Meso-American conflict both Pre-Columbian and Post. I know that there is evidence of fight schools among the native Mexicas, divided according to class. But I havent come across anything that suggested a different 'style' of fighting between the warrior classes. I also havent seen any evidence of any 'fectbuchs' among them. I have little to doubt that they may have existed, but I havent read anything to support that idea. Where did you get your support for this idea of the different styles and fight manuals?

Also we need to not mix up 'macanas' with 'maquahuitils'. The macanas were just fire hardened clubs. There is enough evidence to suggest that they could be both blunt as well as 'edged' weapons. The maquahuitils had the obsidian/flint edges imbedded in them. I havent read anything to suggest that these weapons were fragile in any way. There are a few notes that state how impressed the Europeans were that they could not dislodge the stones in the club edge. There is first hand evidence of both a single hand and two handed version of these weapons. There are also a few spear like weapons that are similar. Most look like a leaf blade tip with the obsidian around the edges. There is another weapon whose name espapes me at the moment (tipioli-somethingorother...) That looks like a hybrid between a two handed maquahuitil and a pole arm. Think more glaive or halbred like that could both cut and thrust.

[s_taillebois]

The Aztecs possessed what amounted to as skirmishers, light and heavy infantry with the Hummingbird, Eagle and Jaguar societies. Hence different methods of fighting-and the different stances shown on the few extant sources. The pochtecas, were trained as much as spys as they were traders. So even harder to ascertain their traditions.
Flint and obsedian, by nature brittle even when heat treated. So it would have been a concern; especially when confronted with metal armours. And like many other martial artists, there may have been some care given when warding to avoid damage to the cutting edges. Although it was wood, animal glues and knapped stone, making these implements took time and cost...plus the social status that came from possessing one. Needlessly ruining such, would be problematic.
Fightbooks, the Aztecs were a literate society, in some regards more so than the general run of the Europeans of the period. The Aztecs even had a form of general public schooling well prior to the Europeans. So, likely they did have manuals; but as I noted prior, most of the Aztec codices were burnt. In that regard supposition will have to do, simply because of the destruction of the conquest. Excepting a few priests, who preserved some books, the Spanish quite literally tried to supress Aztec culture-by burning it, or building over the top of it. Didn't work entirely, but many aspects (literally and figuratively) stayed underground until the 19th and 20th centuries.
However some information did get transfered to the current generation, insofar as Mexican cultural groups like the Gran Folklorio do refer to linked, older traditions.

[Gene Tausk]

The Aztecs possessed what amounted to as skirmishers, light and heavy infantry with the Hummingbird, Eagle and Jaguar societies. Hence different methods of fighting-and the different stances shown on the few extant sources. The pochtecas, were trained as much as spys as they were traders. So even harder to ascertain their traditions.
Flint and obsedian, by nature brittle even when heat treated. So it would have been a concern; especially when confronted with metal armours. And like many other martial artists, there may have been some care given when warding to avoid damage to the cutting edges. Although it was wood, animal glues and knapped stone, making these implements took time and cost...plus the social status that came from possessing one. Needlessly ruining such, would be problematic.
Fightbooks, the Aztecs were a literate society, in some regards more so than the general run of the Europeans of the period. The Aztecs even had a form of general public schooling well prior to the Europeans. So, likely they did have manuals; but as I noted prior, most of the Aztec codices were burnt. In that regard supposition will have to do, simply because of the destruction of the conquest. Excepting a few priests, who preserved some books, the Spanish quite literally tried to supress Aztec culture-by burning it, or building over the top of it. Didn't work entirely, but many aspects (literally and figuratively) stayed underground until the 19th and 20th centuries.
However some information did get transfered to the current generation, insofar as Mexican cultural groups like the Gran Folklorio do refer to linked, older traditions.

Guys, while I personally find this stuff interesting, it is not germane to discussions of European Medieval and Renn martial arts. So, let's end it here. If you want to continue this discussion, email each other.