Mensur Fechten

[JeffGentry]

Yes, it's still happening. It's not illegal and it's not a secret thing nor is it done to get a scar or impress the ladies.

To me and most people who have been fencing a mensur, a scar shows that you made a mistake while fencing - nothing to be proud of.

Before judging something you don't kow about, please inform yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensur

If yu have further questions, I'm you man.

Cornelius

From the research i have done it seem's pretty illegal to me, I have read account's of police raid's on mensur location's as recent as the 1980's.

Jeff

[Cornelius Engelhardt]

The scar resulting from a hit is called a Schmiss (German for a "smite") which was seen as a badge of honour especially in the second half of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century. Today it is not easy for an outsider to identify Mensur scars in the face of a conversation partner due to better medical treatment.

Sounds like they like the scars to me.

The guys in the photoghraph maybe. You will also find some guys today who think that's having a scar is something to brag about. However, the first half of the 20th century is a long time ago and things have changed significantly since then.

[Cornelius Engelhardt]

Yes, it's still happening. It's not illegal and it's not a secret thing nor is it done to get a scar or impress the ladies.

To me and most people who have been fencing a mensur, a scar shows that you made a mistake while fencing - nothing to be proud of.

Before judging something you don't kow about, please inform yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensur

If yu have further questions, I'm you man.

Cornelius

From the research i have done it seem's pretty illegal to me, I have read account's of police raid's on mensur location's as recent as the 1980's.

Jeff

It may still be illegal in Switzerland (if I remember correctly). In Germany and Austria it's perfectly legal as long as it is done in a way that makes it impossible for the participants to sustain fatal injuries.

And really, the point is not having your face cut up. We wouldn't train 2 hours a day, 5 days a week just to get cut. For that you don't have to train at all.

[JeffGentry]

Yes, it's still happening. It's not illegal and it's not a secret thing nor is it done to get a scar or impress the ladies.

To me and most people who have been fencing a mensur, a scar shows that you made a mistake while fencing - nothing to be proud of.

Before judging something you don't kow about, please inform yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensur

If yu have further questions, I'm you man.

Cornelius

From the research i have done it seem's pretty illegal to me, I have read account's of police raid's on mensur location's as recent as the 1980's.

Jeff

It may still be illegal in Switzerland (if I remember correctly). In Germany and Austria it's perfectly legal as long as it is done in a way that makes it impossible for the participants to sustain fatal injuries.

And really, the point is not having your face cut up. We wouldn't train 2 hours a day, 5 days a week just to get cut. For that you don't have to train at all.

So I Take it that you are amember of a fencing fraternity?

Jeff

[Cornelius Engelhardt]

So I Take it that you are amember of a fencing fraternity?

Jeff

That's right.

[Mike Cartier]

whats the point of standing still and not moving when the other guy attacks you then?

[Cornelius Engelhardt]

whats the point of standing still and not moving when the other guy attacks you then?

1. It's actually safer not to move. If you don't move and keep the correct posture, if there's a hit, it's usually on your scalp, not your cheek.
2. The Mensur is also a test of will. The idea is to stand fast and not flinch back. Moving out of the way is considered a loss of control.
3. It's the way the fencing technique works. It's specifically designed and highly regulated around only using your arm and not move any other part of the body.

Hope this explains it. The technique is so much different from "normal" fencing that it's very hard to explain if you haven't seen it yourself.

[Cornelius Engelhardt]

Great pic!
The guy on the far right seems to be enjoying the bloodshed. I laughed when I saw the wounded fencer clinging to his buddy's arm. Perhaps he passed out after the picture was taken? <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Actually, the both guys sitting are the two who just fenced against each other. There are usually no hard feeling because a Mensur is not a duel and it's quite common to bond afterwards.

So yes, they actually could be buddies.

[Cornelius Engelhardt]

Wikipedia said that small sword was used at the end of the 15th Century. Huh?

Is that an example of someone not knowing what a small sword is compared to other swords? Most people can identify a sword but they cant tell you what a long sword is, or a rapier is, or a small sword is, etc...

Mensur fencing developed from duelling with smallwords. This left too many people dead so the universities' fencing masters developed the technique which is still used today.

However, the reasoning behind the fencing has changed. Today, it's rarely done for honor's sake.

[John_Clements]

What is shown and what you described is why I came to understand that Mensur-fencing is not martial art but rather sabre-masochism.

"Sabre-masochism"? Oh, that's good.

Yes, this form of German "fencing duel" is harldy self-defense skill, it's about character development and fraternal comeraderie, not swordsmanship.

On a related note: the funny thing is, here we have countless examples of slender very sharp blades striking edge blows with considerable force, yet can only manage to lacerate the skin on the head. But rapier cutting enthusiasts continue to cling to the mistaken belief that their tapered narrow weapons (striking from the lower arm no less) can tear open bodies and disable limbs with slashes. Bizarre.

JC

[Cornelius Engelhardt]

[quote="John_Clements"]
Jeffrey Hull wrote:

On a related note: the funny thing is, here we have countless examples of slender very sharp blades striking edge blows with considerable force, yet can only manage to lacerate the skin on the head. But rapier cutting enthusiasts continue to cling to the mistaken belief that their tapered narrow weapons (striking from the lower arm no less) can tear open bodies and disable limbs with slashes. Bizarre.

JC


I guess you can cut a carotid artery with a mensur blade but it wouldn't be easy and you would have to use a lot of force.

Usually, the blade doesn't penetrate very far into the skin even though the blades are very thin, sharp and highly flexible (therefore not usable for thrusts).

However, I've seen wounds going all the way to the skull bone but this requires a lot of force, a very heavy blade and a specific technique that requires you to abandon your guard and to strike out very far.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Aren't the Mensur techniques themselves specifically designed to be non-lethal?

[Cornelius Engelhardt]

Aren't the Mensur techniques themselves specifically designed to be non-lethal?

Indeed. However, it a very sharp blade you're handling so not only the techniques but also the protecive gear (steel goggles, chainmail etc) are specifically designed to prevent any lethal injuries.

[John_Clements]

Wikipedia said that small sword was used at the end of the 15th Century. Huh?

Is that an example of someone not knowing what a small sword is compared to other swords? Most people can identify a sword but they cant tell you what a long sword is, or a rapier is, or a small sword is, etc...

Yes. They likley mean the French "petit espee" or some such term that translated means "small sword" in English, but not the actual later rapier descendant court sword thrusting blade --the light short gentleman's town sword that became known as a small sword.

JC

[John_Clements]

However, I've seen wounds going all the way to the skull bone but this requires a lot of force, a very heavy blade and a specific technique that requires you to abandon your guard and to strike out very far.[/quote]

Wounds going all the way to the skull bone require a lot of force and a very heavy blade??? Harldy. People get cut to the scalp all the time by simple accidents from even blunt instruments. I've seen scalps cut and torn by volleyballs and boffer toys.
The skin on the human head is tight and thin and full of blood vessels. It doesn't take a specialy sharp tool or a great blow to get to through scalp at all.

JC