Dagger throwing

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Jay,

just so you know, the first Talhoffer plate shown earlier for the Thott is a throw with a knife.

A quick translation reads:

Daz blenden ab dem huopt Darby der wurff [in leib]
Here to blind with the hat to present (or offer) the throw to the body.

However, I agree with you that throwing your knife is a bad idea in a fight, unless you have a backup knife.

The second Talhoffer picture says nothing about throwing something.

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[JeremyDillon]

There are no old sources showing throwing daggers.

I believe if you read the rest of the thread you'll see a plate from Talhoffer showing a dagger throw. I think we owe it to ourselves to discuss issues like this if only to debunk misconceptions. I can appreciate a healthy dose of empirical skepticism, but I don't think an out and out dismissive attitude helps us much.

[Jay Vail]

Hi Jay,

just so you know, the first Talhoffer plate shown earlier for the Thott is a throw with a knife.

A quick translation reads:

Daz blenden ab dem huopt Darby der wurff [in leib]
Here to blind with the hat to present (or offer) the throw to the body.

However, I agree with you that throwing your knife is a bad idea in a fight, unless you have a backup knife.

The second Talhoffer picture says nothing about throwing something.

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS

Okay, Brian. You got me. Goes to show how important the text is to interpreting the picture. Personally, I am very cautious about interpreting pictures without reference to the text. It is too easy to get it wrong otherwise. So we have one example of throwing the dagger.

It's still a really bad idea and its really really hard to do and reliably and consistently hit with the point.

[philippewillaume]

hello
Yes that is what the text says.
However one can not disagree with what jay says. I think it would be very excessive to generalise throw of a dagger as a generic viable technique. Those plates are from a section about mismatched weapons. So I would see them as a get out of jail free card. It is a close range throw probably by the handle with no twirling.

I would say that in the case of the picture, it king of make sense.
If we look at the situation the other block has a demi-lance. Both have no armor.
Throwing your dagger is not really going to make your situation stinks significantly more that it is before you had the dagger.
And spear/jo can be handled open handed with much less awkwardness than a sword (one or two handed) so the throw of the hat and the dagger may give you time and opportunity to enter and wrestle the man or the weapon, if the dagger stick that bonus.

Phil

[Jay Vail]

There are no old sources showing throwing daggers.

I believe if you read the rest of the thread you'll see a plate from Talhoffer showing a dagger throw. I think we owe it to ourselves to discuss issues like this if only to debunk misconceptions. I can appreciate a healthy dose of empirical skepticism, but I don't think an out and out dismissive attitude helps us much.

Jeremy, I saw that one plate, but I am very reluctant to interpret it without the translation. I have made mistakes myself in interpreting the pictures alone without reference to the text only to discover my error later when the text was available, and I have seen others make the same mistake. Brian, however, has provided a translation for the first plate that seems to confirm that the author intends the picture to depict a throw of the dagger. So I am wrong.

Otherwise, my "healthy dose of empirical skeptism" is partly my inner curmudgeon showing but is also based on several years of throwing knives and suriken at targets. I am dismissive because those years have led me to conclude that throwing knives in other than carefully controlled conditions is not practical for your average bear. It is no more than a distraction most of the time. (Suriken are another matter; but they are specifically designed to be thrown where daggers generally are not, but they too are intended as a distraction rather than to kill.) After you do it, you either have to close and wrestle or run away because you are disarmed, and he in all probability is only bruised and is still armed.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Jay,

as I said, I agree with you about the problems inv0lved with throwing your knife. As I said I don't think it is a good idea unless you have a second knife. Interestingly enough, the style of Okinawin Karate that I have studied for years teaches you to fight with your large three pointed shuriken held in your hands and used as a augmentation to your empty hand techniques. You are taught to carry three of them, one for throwing, and the other two for fighting with. The same goes for the sai sword, one for thowing and two for fighting. I realize this is not the place to discuss Asian arts, but I think this is relevant to the topic of throwing weapons in the European tradition we so favor.

All the best.

Brian Hunt.
GFS

P.S. I really enjoy your new book.

[Allen Johnson]

I found another thrown knife reference.
From Archibald MacGregor's Lecture on the Arte of Defence. (From Wagner & Rectors 'Highland Broadsword: Five Manuals of Scottish Regimental Swordsmanship' p. 134)

On the Scottish Dirk...
"It was also used in much the same manner as a lance: for I have been informed of those people were dexterous marksmen with it; for they would throw at a considerable distance, and hit the object with a certainty."

I agree that it seems foolish to throw a knife, however it would appear that there is on the surface a few references to support it going on. Dosent mean it was an advisable thing though.

[louie Pastore]

On the Scottish Dirk...
"It was also used in much the same manner as a lance: for I have been informed of those people were dexterous marksmen with it; for they would throw at a considerable distance, and hit the object with a certainty."

Hi Allen
Thanks for posting the quote, that would explain the dirk-throwing technique used in the Dirk Dance.

Cheers...

Louie

[Jake_Norwood]

Jay,

I agree with you.

But...

What's going on in the Talhoffer Plate? Do you think the threw the hat, stabbed the guy, then backed off, leaving the knife? Certainly possible. Insetad of calling to shut the thread down let's get educated.

You said that there are no records in coroner's reports of knife throw injuries, etc. That's good--we can learn from it instead of just hearing, "That's crap, you guys are basically just arguing ninjas vs. pirates here."

I agree that throwing a knife in combat is a fantasy. But let's (a) explain that Talhoffer plate and then (b) learn *why* it's a fantasy.

Jake

[Jay Vail]

Jay,

I agree with you.

But...

What's going on in the Talhoffer Plate? Do you think the threw the hat, stabbed the guy, then backed off, leaving the knife? Certainly possible. Insetad of calling to shut the thread down let's get educated.

You said that there are no records in coroner's reports of knife throw injuries, etc. That's good--we can learn from it instead of just hearing, "That's crap, you guys are basically just arguing ninjas vs. pirates here."

I agree that throwing a knife in combat is a fantasy. But let's (a) explain that Talhoffer plate and then (b) learn *why* it's a fantasy.

Jake

I don't really know what to make of that Talhoffer plate. Brian's translation seems to indicate that the dagger must in fact have been thrown, which means I was wrong to suppose the old sources did not include such a thing. Maybe it shows the best case scenario, where you get impact with the point, but perhaps the lesson is: here are ways to distract your opponent so you can close and wrestle. Hard to say, it may be just another trick for the toolbox.

Personally, I would not throw my weapon. It is more useful in your hand. Vadi, Fiore, and Duerer, among others, show ways that the dagger in hand can be used to deflect sword attacks. These techniques are readily adapable to defence against the spear (the attack in the plate). I've seen JC get past the point too many times not to have more confidence in that approach than throwing the dagger.

Once upon a time I spent a lot of time throwing knives at targets, but I think during my best days I only got a stick maybe 60-70 percent of the time with a regular knife. I ruined one really nice knife with my misses.

[Allen Johnson]

This sounds alot like the pommel throwing technique seen in Gladiatoria. Something that is certainly not the normal run of things, but a possibility nonetheless. I can see the goals being similar as a distraction seeing as though you arent going to do a whole lot of damage hucking a pommel at a guy in full plate.

[philippewillaume]

Hello Jake
As you can see from my earlier post, I totally agree with Jay (his latest post and mine are almost identical)

I think the fat we are un-armoured and that he has a spear and not a sword/or a knife makes that a viable option.

Some author, like ringeck, that shows technique that may not be the most adapted to in a given situation, but that are good enough and are safe through out in a large number of case and some others have more tailored technique.

If you take lance on horse as an exemple
Aiming at the head and dropping our point knocking the others lance down is ine VD but not in ringeck. Ringeck has VD’s 3 other lance techniques.
From my experience that one is not that safe, if you are armoured all is fine but you can deflect the lance on you or on your horse.
So I would not use it un-armoured but it can work (it is much safer when you are using two hands on the shaft)

About throwing a knife
Yes it is possible to be relatively good at it; I have seen a few guys that were very good at it during my time in the army but I would be on Jays opinion. I can only throw reliably about 3 paces. That is awfully close if I bugger it up.

That being said I never though of using it like a spear, it is something that I will have to try.

Is a dirk blade heavy and does it have a reasonably long handle?

phil

[JeremyDillon]

On the Scottish Dirk...
"It was also used in much the same manner as a lance: for I have been informed of those people were dexterous marksmen with it; for they would throw at a considerable distance, and hit the object with a certainty."

Interesting, thanks for the info. I wonder what he means by "a considerable distance" though. It would seem unlikely that anyone could reliably hit a moving target at a range further than 10 or 15 feet. This is all just speculation, though. It seems as if some of you have experience with throwing knives or daggers, I'd be interested to hear your interpretation of the range issue.

[louie Pastore]

Is a dirk blade heavy and does it have a reasonably long handle?

phil

Hi Phil...

The handle's around 5.5inches, blade's around 1ft long and it's fairly heavy. Traditionally they were made from broken sword blades so the size & weight would vary.

Louie

[Allen Johnson]

here is a decent write up on dirks:
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_dirks.html