Vikings against Samurai, trying to settle an argument

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Matthew Miller
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Vikings against Samurai, trying to settle an argument

Postby Matthew Miller » Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:26 am

Some of my uninformed acquaintances have been having a running argument about whether an army of Samurai would be able to flat out beat an army of vikings or vice versa. I hesitate to get involved, as I do not wish to lose friends, but I have tried to tell them that, apart from cultural and combat style differences, the terrain, weather, and period make a great deal of difference.

There are currently two factions, one that thinks that the berserk vikings would win with their brute force hacking, and the other believes that the artful samurai would win with their grace and mystic power. Try as I might, I cannot squelch the misconceptions that they hold on to so dearly.

Anyway, I was wondering what some of the brilliant minds here would say on this issue?

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Eric Allen
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Postby Eric Allen » Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:33 am

Shake your head and ignore the arguement unless they ask you a specific question. that's my advice.

Honestly, its a silly arguement, and if you actually risk losing friends over it, it has gone WAY to far. Better to not get involved.

*edit* furthermore, the best way to combat myth and misconception is with quality research. If they ask you about some outrageous claim, direct them to a book or other relaible source where they can find the REAL information.

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Allen Johnson
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Postby Allen Johnson » Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:39 am

Eric's advice is the best. If that dosent suffice have them read these:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm
http://www.thearma.org/essays/katanavs.htm

the answer is that there is no answer. All you can do is list the variables and the pros and cons of each side. If they think that all vikings are bezerkers and their swordplay was just brutal hacking and if they think all samurais are graceful and have mistical powers then they are probably beyond reason anyhow and won't change their tiny minds no matter what evidence is presented.
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry

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Mike Cartier
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Postby Mike Cartier » Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:41 am

Ninjas would destroy them both and not even an army of Ninjas just a couple of Ninjas would wreck them all.
Mike Cartier
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Will Adamson
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Postby Will Adamson » Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:41 am

Mike Cartier wrote:Ninjas would destroy them both and not even an army of Ninjas just a couple of Ninjas would wreck them all.


&*(^, you beat me to it!

My vote is for Umpaloopas with a second place vote for Charlie's Angels.

I think we have thus shown the ludicrous nature of this discussion. 8)
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Jay Vail
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Postby Jay Vail » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:04 pm

Mike Cartier wrote:Ninjas would destroy them both and not even an army of Ninjas just a couple of Ninjas would wreck them all.


heheheh

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Eric Dohner
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Postby Eric Dohner » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:05 pm

Oh, the ninja might beat samurai. But the Vikings' pirate allies would drink the ninja under the table as a warm-up for their celebratory carouse with said Vikings!

...yes, that's a pretty silly argument.

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Mars Healey
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Postby Mars Healey » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:17 pm

Pteewt!

That's the sound of a South American native using a blow-dart. You never even see him as viking/samurai/ninja slips into unconsciousness.

So silly, it's like saying "My god can beat up your god."
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Gene Tausk
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Postby Gene Tausk » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:00 pm

Mars Healey wrote:Pteewt!

That's the sound of a South American native using a blow-dart. You never even see him as viking/samurai/ninja slips into unconsciousness.

So silly, it's like saying "My god can beat up your god."


Guys, as amusing as all of this is (and I do find it very amusing, especially when I am looking for a diversion while at work), this really is not going anywhere nor is it germane to our studies. So, unless we can find some solid evidence or argument to answer the original question (which is doubtful....), we might want to think about wrapping things up.

Although, I must admit, I am surprised and disappointed that Mike Cartier did not mention the fact that a band of pirates might give the ninjas a run for their money.....

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Nathaniel Bacon
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Postby Nathaniel Bacon » Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:53 am

To not hijack the thread:
The Vikings won.

Some of the Normans (Vikings) moved to England. Some of the English moved to America. Japan (Samurai) attacked America (Vikings) and bushido was mostly ended with Hiroshima & Nagasaki and the changes that end of WWII brought.

On the historical and relevant side:
Can someone settle my curiosity and help me understand the timing of the development of the Sword? Early Viking/Norman swords look like spatha’s (sp) (or a later and longer version of the gladius).

Were the Viking Saex (sp) and the bronze/iron age swords developed independently, or an adaptation of the other?

Were swords developed independently in the east or are they too, an adaptation of Mediterranean bronze/iron age swords?

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Will Adamson
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Postby Will Adamson » Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:13 am

Nathaniel Bacon wrote:To not hijack the thread:
The Vikings won.

Some of the Normans (Vikings) moved to England. Some of the English moved to America. Japan (Samurai) attacked America (Vikings) and bushido was mostly ended with Hiroshima & Nagasaki and the changes that end of WWII brought.


Well we (Vikings) did have help from Navajo codetalkers, the Chinese, and the Filipinos. But I do see your point.
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Jeremiah Backhaus
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Postby Jeremiah Backhaus » Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:19 am

Well, I agree that the Vikings won (though the clan of the Normans went to France - Normandy). But the Spatha is actually a mounted sword while the Gladius is a footsoldier's sword. The Ancient development of swords maintained the casting style for quite some time (cf. sickle-sword, or khopesh) once iron work was accidentally discovered, blade making kind of took on a more stock idea. You can see what I mean by look ing at pieces, there are minor variations but essentially the same. This is how I view particularly the Spatha and the "Viking" blades.

I also don't think that it is much of a stretch to say that a clan claimed a
Spatha from the battlefield and tried to copy it. I don't think they did too well though. Most scholars will say that the Viking swords were nothing special, in fact the tangs are often too thin and too short, their best weapon was the bearded axe (and the longship. Sorry, I digress).

One would be hardpressed to try and prove that metallurgical style did not come from the "Middle East," followed by Roman. Most iron work came from the Anatolia (Turkey) because in ancient times that is where the most iron ore came from. I would say that the base designs started there and moved outward. After this each clan took the base design and made their own changes. So, I would agree that it is possible for the seax to be developed from "Middle Eastern" base designs.

I haven't studied metallurgy in the east nor the development of blades there. I only know one anecdotal story about how they decided to have the single edge blade over the double. But I have no way to really comment on your last question. But you have my thoughts on metallrugy and the ancient styles after some research that I did for a paper in college. Hopefully I remembered it accurately.

(If the pirates and vikings teamed up, they would destroy everyone)

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Martin Wallgren
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Postby Martin Wallgren » Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:58 am

Jeremiah Backhaus wrote:Well, I agree that the Vikings won (though the clan of the Normans went to France - Normandy). But the Spatha is actually a mounted sword while the Gladius is a footsoldier's sword. The Ancient development of swords maintained the casting style for quite some time (cf. sickle-sword, or khopesh) once iron work was accidentally discovered, blade making kind of took on a more stock idea. You can see what I mean by look ing at pieces, there are minor variations but essentially the same. This is how I view particularly the Spatha and the "Viking" blades.
)

Ah, well that is just a suggestion and not a fact! Many Auxilliae and Legionarys from the provinces during the second and third centry had Spathae even though they where infantry.
Martin Wallgren, MnHFS

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Jeremiah Backhaus
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Postby Jeremiah Backhaus » Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:31 pm

It would have been more accurate for me to say that it started as a cavalry sword, but did end up in the hands of the lines. I sit corrected. Thank you for trying to keep me on the straight and narrow.

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s_taillebois
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Postby s_taillebois » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:40 am

On the sword situation, likely Northern European swords developed semi-independently. The Med. influence would have come through via the Hellenistic Greeks and the later Romans.
However the earliest bronze age swords, such as the Minoan and Scythian, bear little resemblance to the later European types (for example the willow leaf blades of the classical (pre-Roman) tradition)
More likely, the Viking style sword developed independently, or with the influence of the Gallic swords. By the period the Vikings were in substantial direct contact with the Roman's (Byzantines), they already had their own martial traditions and weapons well in place. And effective to the point that the Byzantine (Romans) hired them as auxillaries. And their immediate Norman descendents, such as Robert Guiscard, were playing havoc in the med. basin...including agaisnt the late development of Roman martial traditions.
On the Japanese/Viking thing...whatever. Except that in all likelyhood, once contact occurred...both sides probably would have been very, very, sick due to exposure to diseases as neither would have had developed resistance for the others normal diseases. More a matter of coughing and vomiting than hacking and such. Have to consider that in the 9th century, neither had been likely been exposed (via intermediates) to the others pathogens.
On the Norman thing...wierdly enough there was a tapestry done about the Norman invasion in reverse, called the "Over Lord" tapestry.
Steven Taillebois


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