Thomas Page - Broadside?

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louie Pastore
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Thomas Page - Broadside?

Postby louie Pastore » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:54 am

Hi All...
Has anyone heard anything about this paper or it's author in regard to the work by Thomas Page 'The Use of the Broadsword' - a true
method of the Highlanders

Louie...
:roll:

British Society for Eighteenth–Century Studies Annual Conference 2006

Panel topic: Scotland and Ireland

Speaker Miss Bethan Mair Jenkins, Trinity College, Oxford
PaperTitle Thomas Page's 'The Use of the Broadsword' - a true
method of the Highlanders?


Abstract
During the 18th century, instructors in the martial arts experienced
an increase in their social status and were seen as more respectable
than they had been during previous centuries. This, combined with
greater degrees of literacy, has resulted in many books on the
subject being published during this period. Notable writers of the
period include Sir William Hope, Zachary Wylde, Captian Godfrey, and
many others. The prevalence of books from this period has proven of
great use to those interested in the study and reconstruction of the
fighting arts of that period. However, it is often naively assumed
by many in the martial arts research community that whatever is
written in these books is true and martially correct. A good example
of this is the swordmaster Thomas Page, who subtitled his major work
on the Use of the Broadsword "The True Method of Fighting with that
Weapon as it is now in Use among the Highlanders; deduc'd from the
Use of the Scymitar; with every Throw, Cut, Guard, and Disarm."
Published less than a year after the Jacobite uprising of 1745, the
work has since been taken and studied as an authentic manual of the
methods of fighting of the Highlanders at the time. I wish to argue
in the course of this paper, however, that what is presented to us
is a composite text, with early examples of both primitivist and
Orientalist discourse, influenced by methods other than those
potentially in use amongst the Highlanders of Page's day, as well as
uncovering some of Page's other motives in writing such a text and
presenting it to the public as the genuine fighting style of the
highland Scots.

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John_Clements
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Re: Thomas Page - Broadside?

Postby John_Clements » Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:04 am

Yes. I have it. Not worth much really . Note the subtitle that its derived oddly enough from the scimitar. Not the most accurate source for a supposed indigenous Scottish style, hunh?

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Allen Johnson
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Postby Allen Johnson » Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:51 am

I too would be very interested in reading this.

John, I agree with you about 99% on your observation of mentioning the scimitar. However...
There are a *few* extant broadswords fitted with curved blades. Commonly called "tucharels" (spelling may be off).
One of which is seen at the bottom of this photo: http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/vie ... uid=717149

Such a sword is also depicted in the Alastair Grant the Champion portirat by Richard Waitt:
http://www.clangrant-us.org/grant-champion.htm

And also being featured in several of the Pennecuick Sketches.

So there *may* be a slight relavance to using the term scimitar to apply to the use of these curved broadswords.
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry

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JeffGentry
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Postby JeffGentry » Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:32 am

At least she has a clue that it may not be an accurate text on use of the Highland Broad sword, and that some martial artist are not correct in assuming that this is a true and martialy correct.

I guess in some respect's this is why some academic's fail to see the relevance of what we do.

Jeff
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Allen Johnson
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Postby Allen Johnson » Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:36 am

JeffGentry wrote:At least she has a clue that it may not be an accurate text on use of the Highland Broad sword, and that some martial artist are not correct in assuming that this is a true and martialy correct.

Jeff


What about Page's system would lead you to feel that it's not martially sound? I find its more solid that alot of the later 18th century texts.
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry

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JeffGentry
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Postby JeffGentry » Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:49 am

Allen Johnson wrote:
JeffGentry wrote:At least she has a clue that it may not be an accurate text on use of the Highland Broad sword, and that some martial artist are not correct in assuming that this is a true and martialy correct.

Jeff


What about Page's system would lead you to feel that it's not martially sound? I find its more solid that alot of the later 18th century texts.


I have read through it on a couple of occasion's and his stance is not what i would want in a fight to linear for my liking and the St George's gaurd realy bug's me, It may be fine for a duel with small sword or military sabre, I think at the time of his writing sword use had already declined pretty far.


Just MO, 1746 is pretty far out of my range of study so i am not an expert on it.


Jeff
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louie Pastore
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Author's reply....

Postby louie Pastore » Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:49 am

The author to the paper has replied to my enquiry....

Dear Mr. Pastore,

Thank you very much for your comments. I was privileged to be able to present this paper to the WMA community at the BFHS event at the Royal Armouries in Leeds (http://www.swash.uk.com/). The full version of my paper is currently in the hands of the webmaster of the Linacre School of Defence, and will hopefully be online when he returns from his current holiday. I hope to have the paper up online at the discussion site here soon also; I do indeed deal with the Penicuick sketches in the course of my paper. Much of the prefaratory matter in the text gives clues to Page's involvement in the Norwich Artillery of the time - I hope that the paper will be up online in due course, and that it will supply you with some answers.
Regards BM Jenkins (BA (Hons) Oxon, MSt. (dist) Oxon), BBD

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Allen Johnson
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Postby Allen Johnson » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:14 am

JeffGentry wrote:
Allen Johnson wrote:
JeffGentry wrote:At least she has a clue that it may not be an accurate text on use of the Highland Broad sword, and that some martial artist are not correct in assuming that this is a true and martialy correct.

Jeff


What about Page's system would lead you to feel that it's not martially sound? I find its more solid that alot of the later 18th century texts.


I have read through it on a couple of occasion's and his stance is not what i would want in a fight to linear for my liking and the St George's gaurd realy bug's me, It may be fine for a duel with small sword or military sabre, I think at the time of his writing sword use had already declined pretty far.


Just MO, 1746 is pretty far out of my range of study so i am not an expert on it.


Jeff


Page makes use of both a "narrow stance" and a "wide stance". With the narrow being much more linear and the wide being nearly identical (in my opinion anyway) to a right foot forward longswords stance. So you have an option on how linear your stance is.

He makes specific mention of both Fore and Back Traverses to take you off line and to cut to your opponents openings. This is perfectly on par with what we do in longsword, messer, rapier etc. He also uses what he calls a "vault" which is a movement directly sideways to avoid a cut. He also makes use of "springing off", a leap or very quick avoidance to be used after an attack

I too find the St. George guard nearly useless- however, Page too feels that it is only "used occasionally to stop a down right blow". He states it is never to be used as a static guard and is to be used only if slipping back or traversing is not an option. Like most areas of Euro swordplay, the traverse or avoidance is the prefered "parry".

Not meant to be a personal challenge but I'm not understanding how someone could read Page and discredit his legitimacy on the grounds of being too linear and on the use of an "occasional", lastly used, guard :)
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry

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louie Pastore
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1746 Publication

Postby louie Pastore » Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:12 am

Page's timing in the publication of his 'Highland' sword manual is puzzling, assuming he wrote it in 1745 when England was under threat from the Highland hoard and published it in 1746 when the Highland method had been grape-shot....
I would presume the book (dedicated to his commander) would have painted him as pro-Highlander and a possible Jacobite sympathiser....
Unless of course he was referring to Highlanders in the British army ?

Louie

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JeffGentry
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Postby JeffGentry » Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:21 pm

Hey Allen

I am not saying it is all crap, I just do not think it is a very good sword manual, I tend to trust my instinct and some thing's just bother me about this book, I do not think it is a waste of time or energy ready/studing it, I think it is a good look at how thing's were being done in that time period.

I have not studied it enough to go through and line out what bother's me about it, I have read it about 4 time's over the last 3 year's so that is not nearly enough IMO for me to be an expert on it.

I relay just thought it interesting that an acedemic came to similar conclussion as me.

Jeff
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J. F. McBrayer
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Under discussion elsewhere

Postby J. F. McBrayer » Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:00 am

This bit of news is also being discussed at Sword Forum (and at the Cateran Society, but as I'm not a member of their forums I don't have the URL handy). The discussion there seems to focus on the similarity of Page's manual to contemporary manuals. This is outside my area of knowledge, so I don't have anything to add, but I wanted to pass on the link.
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Allen Johnson
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Postby Allen Johnson » Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:59 am

JeffGentry wrote:Hey Allen

I am not saying it is all crap, I just do not think it is a very good sword manual, I tend to trust my instinct and some thing's just bother me about this book...

Jeff


Fair enough,
My personal approach is more of the mindset of giving a period text the benefit of the doubt until a major investigation is made. I'd rather not trust my instincts over what is presented as they certainly had a better idea of things than I do. Often times when we feel awkward or uncomfortable doing a particular technique outlined in a period text I'd venture to say we are either not understanding the language properly or have not done it enough to get our bodies used to it. Printed word is hard enough to learn swordplay with using just books that are written today; much less ones that are written several hundred years ago.

Indeed, the context under WHY a manual is written can certainly change the preception and validity of a period text. And that seems to be a major question of what the author of this particualr article mention, was addressing. We are also guessing and deducing as to what the author wrote without having read it ourselves.

At the link JF McBrayer provided above, Paul Wagner provided a legnthy responce packed full of information and sources. I feel it merits serious reading and consideration. (dosen't mean I agree with 100% of what he said but it's well documented and scholastically put together and is worthy of the consideration).
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry

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Allen Johnson
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Postby Allen Johnson » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:53 am

The article in question is up at the Linacre School of Defence website:
http://www.sirwilliamhope.org/Library/A ... lising.php
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry


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