New editorial - Western Civ & Spartans

[Shane Smith]

What does the last page really have to do with the RMA Gentlemen ?

Get back on topic everyone. The societal impetus and legacy of medieval and renaissance western Europe is obviously important as well as the cultural context in-period to the study of our craft and is therefore open for debate, but all of the other paths being blazed afield on all sides in this thread are needless and fruitless in regards to the period combatives we as an organization are engaged in recreating.

The ARMA is not a liberal or conservative political entity. We are a martial arts organization. Before you post in this or any other thread on this forum, ask yourself; "Is it relevant to RMA?" . If it isn't, don't post. If it is, be concise,reasoned and scholarly in your writings.

Forum policy is clearly stated when you sign up to post on the ARMA forum so there is no need to debate forum policy on this forum. Forum policy is not RMA.

[Axel Pettersson]

I do not really know I guess, since the editorial dealed with such a broad spectrum the discussion became unfocused.

Edit: I removed my question : "how have western culture influenced HEMA in specific ways" as the absurdity of the question only struck me once I had posted it..

[Shane Smith]

Darn, I feel about as far away from HEMA as I can possibly be, it only feels like an on topic discussion because it has to do with the editorial, not with Historical European Martial Arts (I did not see the link between those two so clearly in the first place, probably a languge barrier).

This is true and perhaps it would be time to move the non-HEMA related discussions elsewhere. Opinions? Mod decision?

This is not a forum for the discussion of things that are not related to RMA so there is nowhere else to move off-topic discussion to save for private communications among individuals. I recommend people do just that unless it is relevant to the ARMA forums stated goal of furthering an understanding of, and competency in the Renaissance Martial Arts.

Since you have asked for a moderators decision, I as one of a handful of same will offer mine; I have decided that we all need to get back on topic

[Axel Pettersson]

This is not a forum for the discussion of things that are not related to RMA so there is nowhere else to move off-topic discussion to save for private communications among individuals. I recommend people do just that unless it is relevant to the ARMA forums stated goal of furthering an understanding of, and competency in the Renaissance Martial Arts.

Since you have asked for a moderators decision, I as one of a handful of same will offer mine; I have decided that we all need to get back on topic

Thanks moderator, I like that idea.

I need help though, as the topic was started taround the editorial which consisted of this following text:

"The traditional values of Western Civilization, in particular the Judeo-Christian ethics of Latin Europe, are reflected in our systems of law and governance, which are now the model for those of much of the planet. Though at times it has deviated and suffered aberrations, the values and virtues found within Western Civilization are those of principled disagreement, open discourse, limitations on the power of the state, equality in the eyes of justice, individual opportunity and property rights, capitalism, free markets, and civic pride. These reflect a longstanding tradition of respect for the desire of all people to live free. They uphold the conviction that human progress, human dignity, and knowledge is gained through guided reason, not mysticism, custom, or revelation.

Unlike those squalid suffering regions of the globe that did not embrace reason, science, and individual rights, the West achieved its unprecedented wealth, health, comfort, freedom, and personal opportunity as a direct result of its cultural values—not the blind chances of geography or climate. The importance and accomplishments of Western Civilization are demonstrable facts and to point them out or take pride in them is no ethnocentric prejudice. The 18th century in the West marked the "Age of Enlightenment" where respect for reason triumphed over superstition, mysticism, and religiosity. The 20th century marked the victory of science, democracy, and the free-market. These climaxed in the American experiment where for the first time in human history a government respecting the individual was made of, by, and for the people. Yet now, in the 21st century, despite Western Civilization's undeniable achievements and its advancement of the human condition, despite its unarguable accomplishments in the arts and sciences, it is under attack today as never before by a collusion of religious fanatics, despots, tyrants, nihilist ideologues, and many of its own disingenuous intellectuals all of whom use its tools and technologies, and enjoy its benefits, while at the very same time denounce its values and philosophies. "

I need some help getting this to get this to link with HEMA, especially the parts that deal with western culture after the 17th century, as I have understood that the timeframe ARMA deals with ends there.

I do not mean to act ignorant or disrespectufl (of cource), I just cannot see clearly where we can start the discussion.

[Shane Smith]

Axel, I read the editorial today for the first time. It ends thus;

"What's all this—the roots and modern incarnation of Western Civ—got to do with historical European martial art studies? Well...Our martial heritage existed within a cultural context. When studying Medieval and Renaissance combat methods and noting the societies and cultures they were a product of; we cannot disregard how fighting men of the eras dealt with issues of violence, death, personal danger, courage, fear, duty, sacrifice, etc. These were largely cultural issues of Western ethics and spirituality. They address fundamental questions of when and where and why it was proper and right to use violent force. As an intense student of the subject and practitioner of the craft, it's something I, personally, cannot ignore. These are things which, much as for the 300 Spartans who strived to persevere at Thermopylae, have long motivated warrior fighting men within Western Civilization. In a world governed by the open use of brutal force, the Spartans—flawed as they were themselves (and we are now ourselves) —fought and died not just for their own city and personal freedom, but for all of Greece."

The ending ties in the rest of the article in-context of RMA in my opinion and even John appears to realize he's touching on a peripheral, yet important aspect of our craft from my reading of that paragraph. In the big picture, the article seems relevant to RMA as it addresses Johns thoughts on how culture affected the fighting men of their day.

In the microcosmic sense that has developed within this thread, the act of debating the worth and comparitive aspects of the "Western Culture" for the sake of that alone is not in keeping with the RMA as we are engaging in a civics debate divorced somewhat from the direct influence on the developement of the martial arts of western Europe.

[Axel Pettersson]

Axel, I read the editorial today for the first time. It ends thus;

"What's all this—the roots and modern incarnation of Western Civ—got to do with historical European martial art studies? Well...Our martial heritage existed within a cultural context. When studying Medieval and Renaissance combat methods and noting the societies and cultures they were a product of; we cannot disregard how fighting men of the eras dealt with issues of violence, death, personal danger, courage, fear, duty, sacrifice, etc. These were largely cultural issues of Western ethics and spirituality. They address fundamental questions of when and where and why it was proper and right to use violent force. As an intense student of the subject and practitioner of the craft, it's something I, personally, cannot ignore. These are things which, much as for the 300 Spartans who strived to persevere at Thermopylae, have long motivated warrior fighting men within Western Civilization. In a world governed by the open use of brutal force, the Spartans—flawed as they were themselves (and we are now ourselves) —fought and died not just for their own city and personal freedom, but for all of Greece."

The ending ties in the rest of the article in-context of RMA in my opinion and even John appears to realize he's touching on a peripheral, yet important aspect of our craft from my reading of that paragraph. In the big picture, the article seems relevant to RMA as it addresses Johns thoughts on how culture affected the fighting men of their day.

In the microcosmic sense that has developed within this thread, the act of debating the worth and comparitive aspects of the "Western Culture" for the sake of that alone is not in keeping with the RMA as we are engaging in a civics debate divorced somewhat from the direct influence on the developement of the martial arts of western Europe.

Got ya, I don't see the connection as clearly as you, but the oppinions I have on the article are almost exclusively offtopic anyhow, i'll spare them for a forum where they are ontopic.

[Nigel Plum]

Mr. Plum & Mr. Marwood
Mike never said Greece and Rome were the sole source of western culture. Not on these forums or yours. No one has. Mike said it was the BASE. Lets be fair.

I'm sorry but he really did

Bludhall
Corporal


Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Florida USA
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greek and Roman culture is the basis of Western Culture.

Period.

It is where we get everything we are.

While I accept this might not have been what he meant, it is what he wrote.

[Mike Cartier]

While I accept this might not have been what he meant, it is what he wrote.

so you assume that then that means i mean everey single influence is greco-roman? Interesting.

if i said to you i work all day would you assume i meant every single minute of it. i'm not sure why i have to clarify what that means
Sorry i didn;t realise i was supposed to use precise legal language . I figured we are all prett ysmart here you would assume i wasn't saying that nothing thats happened in the more than 1000 years since the classical age effected our culture. Stand to reason if there is no more classical age then the next age woulkd effect us and then the next etc.

[J Marwood]

Mike, we can only go on what you write. I must admit to having to spend a while making sure that my posts are (hopefully) coherent and that those who do not have English as first language will be able to understand them. It's one of the perils of writing on-line.

Regardless, in the interests of maintaining the on-topic discussion, what do you feel we can take from the article to better understand HEMA?

[Stacy Clifford]

I'm going to make one suggestion here for a way that the subject of "Western Civilization" relates to RMA: the manuals themselves.

We have dozens of them that survive from Germany, Italy, England, France, Spain, etc., all card-carrying "western" nations of Europe. I have seen many requests on this forum over the last few years wondering if there were any fighting texts from the middle east, China, Russia, etc., and I can probably count on my fingers the number of them that have managed to be named in response for all other cultures combined. Simply put, European cultures have far more written sources about fighting (and many other things, for that matter) than any other cultures.

The obvious question is why, and the most likely answer is that somehow European civilization gave its citizens more motivation and incentive to produce such works than other cultures. Here are some of my own suggestions for those of you more learned in history to debate:

First, writing itself in European cultures became associated with honor at low levels of society as well as the nobility. Violating a written agreement is more dishonorable than violating a spoken agreement, for instance. Putting something in writing attaches additional importance to it that other cultures do not necessarily assign, and makes the content worth more than the paper it's printed on.

The value of secular writing in scholarly circles increased in the Renaissance, leading to new emphasis on classical, pre-Christian writings. As the value of pre-Christian ideas gained in stature, many new scholars attempted to emulate or incorporate those ideas into their own works to validate their own. As a result of this newfound prestige, more secular works were produced.

The European economic system of the Renaissance allowed knowledge to be profitable. The invention and middle-class availability of the printing press meant that copying documents didn't have to be tedious and expensive anymore, so you could make lots more copies. If you appeased all the right laws and people, you could sell those copies and make money, or you could use them to promote yourself as a knowledgeable person in order to sell your services. Economic mobility was allowed to convey a certain amount of social mobility. The concept of the "self-made man" was invented in the west.

Changes in European economic and social values during the Renaissance combined to make reading and writing available to a wider variety of people among all social classes than in any other part of the world at the time. The more knowledge was spread, the more it got used. The more it got used, the more it got refined, re-analyzed and improved upon, or just plain one-upped. The system fed back on itself in a runaway cycle of material progress that ultimately left the rest of the world behind within a few centuries.

Obviously these things apply to more than just martial arts, but we can easily see how they gave us such a rich diversity of sources from which to rediscover our ancient arts, while other cultures rely primarily on oral transmission to preserve theirs.

These are just a few of my own ideas, perhaps a little disjointed (it is pretty late and I can't write forever), but worth thinking about. I'll be interested to see what others can add to them.

[Mike Cartier]

what thats it?
That was the entire argument against my defense of classical europes influence? i just find it stunning that I go to discuss European history with people whose main interest is European history and I am told there is no "west" and the classical age didn't effect us hardly at all.

How on earth are people so upset at the article if they don't even know these 2 elementary points about European history, so much so that you demand i research western Civ and prove it. prove 2 ideas that have been standard European education principles for well over 500 to 1000 years. Like I said they are extablished concepts so if you don't beleive you are required to prove it not the other way around.

Considering that the article is about western civ one should probably have some knowledge about western civ before you get all upset at an article about western civ. if you already do know about western civ then why all the grandstanding about my exact wording when you know that sort of precision is really not necessary. Seems to me its just internet argumentarianism for the sake of it without any real regard for the topic being discussed.

I stand by my original posts on Schola, if you don't know anything about the effect of classical age upon western civ then you are woefully ignorant of western civ. if you also claim that no "west" exists and demand a geograhpical location you are also grossly ignorant of western history.

The history of both the classical age and western civ is the basic foundation of western historical studies, if you skipped it thats like reading a book and skipping the first 3 chapters of the book.

In addition we have been called idiots , cowards and intellectually dishonest on this other forum for not discussing this on our forums which you can plainly see we are doing in this very thread. We have also been called racists for espousing a appreciative view of western civ , something i ifnd personally distasteful and unfair. ALL people should be proud of their culture, i see nothing wrong with that.
Its kind of difficult to discuss anything when the level of the dicsussion is immediatly brought down to a gutter level.

[s_taillebois]

Begot Gentry, M. Clement's seemed to have provoked quite a discourse with his essay. In general, the cultural issues alluded to by Clement's and those disputing his ideas; carry a lingering aire of the Bennett/Bloom disputes back in the late '80's and 90's. Accordingly, perhaps I'll confine my responses to other arenas.
There was mention of the difficulties in understand past societies, there are limits to what we can comprehend. Quite literally when confronted by symbols (and reality) we do change the interpretation and even cognitive structures in accordance with our current cultural mnemonic (*Lev Vygotsky's artifact and mnemonics). As an example, the 'Begot' which started my missive, once was a French expression referring to the English tendancy to say "By God", whilst they were rampaging throughout France during the 100 years war. We can know this, but the cultural subtleties (and resentments) attendent to that word, we cannot comprehend, because the context no longer exists. I may know what the word means, but can have no full conception of the effect it had, when applied to my ancestors during their wars with the French.
Concerning the mention of mysticism, in the period ARMA studies, this was a substantial aspect to the martial culture. Granted, as noted above, we cannot fully understand their perception of these matters, but we cannot ignore them either. Accordingly when M. Clement's mentioned that ARMA may be publishing essays on the matter, I applauded the intent. We may study the periods martial culture, with a certain modern detachment...but some comprehension of the mystical ethos of the era, would be useful to comprehend why the masters wrote as they did. At a basic level, unlike ARMA and brethren, ultimately what Silver, Liechtenauer, Ringeck's were practicing was the art of killing. And to imply that these men had no spiritual, moral, or mystical traditions to cope with the effects of these acts; has some disturbing implications. (I'd prefer not to view these men as ammoral, killing automatons). We have to recall that some of their mystical compensations remained in use for a very long time. St. Patrick's purgatory (and like locations in England and Germany) remained in use until the modern era. The tradition of atonement or gratitude, by leaving one's sword at the altar, was also influential for a long period. And even the humility (or atonement) of the penitent shift and procession, was instrumental (and no doubt a difficult choice for a Cavalier to have to make). And as all know here, the sword itself carried certain symbolic aspects. If these elements had not been in place, and important...how could these men have survived pyschologically, or how why did they follow such as the Maid of Orlean's, or Bernard of Clairvoix?
" ...In Saint Georges name, here begins the art of fighting, written in verse by J.L. who was a great master of his art, God have mercy on him"....

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

Vooooop

[Mike Cartier]

i didn't even catch those comments about womens freedom under Hindu and Mongols

[Jon Pellett]

Mr. Heslop

Alina can no longer reply on this forum. If you want to debate her, you could try the Schola Gladiatoria forum.

Cheers