Brothers at Arms, possibly inaccurate WMA School.

[Sam Nankivell]

While on one of my YouTube searches, I happened to come upon a video from this site: http://www.brothersatarms.com.au/awma.academy_of_western_martial_art.ews

The clip I found was of their Sword and Buckler "sparring": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3Q1NC2rLys&mode=related&search=

What is your opinion of these guys' legitimacy? Are they actually teaching a proper form of sword and buckler? Because it sure looks like they aren't.

[Tony_Indurante]

While I don't doubt that they are martial artists they are not doing RMA. The sword and buckler vid looks like escrima with a sword and buckler. They videos also all look choreographed with the same movement patterns repeated over and over.

It looks like EMA with a patina of RMA thrown on to catch the interest of students.

That's my opinion.

[Mike Cartier]

yeah thats FMA, I see only a thin veneer of RMA to the S & B work.
Nothing wrong with that of course, fighting is fighting, however i wouldn't want to study a FMA that was just dressed up RMA. Likewise FMA dressed up as RMA is not what i would want.

[Jaron Bernstein]

To quote the web site: "Through these years they ventured into many disciplines of Eastern and Western Martial Arts. The culmination of these years and combining several different martial arts styles brings them together today under the Brothers At Arms banner. Brothers At Arms are proud to introduce the Academy of Western Martial Arts (AWMA) which instructs students in armed and unarmed antagonistic combat in a freestyle format rarely seen this modern age."

My impression is that what they are doing is trying to fuse their earlier practice of EMA with a more recent addition of WMA. On the plus side it looks they actually do move with some vigor and come across as fighters rather than those with a less martial approach. But their outlook differs in that ARMA uses historical western manuals as the primary base of its program (along with the other elements of the ARMA method). These guys seem to have taken a different tack and adopted more of a JKD "take things from all sources as you find them useful" philosophy. If it works for them and they can turn it into a good skill, that is fine. There is space under the sky for many methods. But it does not come across as a primarily WMA (or even one particular EMA style) based curriculum. I guess it depends on what you are looking for.

[Jason Taylor]

While on one of my YouTube searches, I happened to come upon a video from this site: http://www.brothersatarms.com.au/awma.academy_of_western_martial_art.ews

The clip I found was of their Sword and Buckler "sparring": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3Q1NC2rLys&mode=related&search=

What is your opinion of these guys' legitimacy? Are they actually teaching a proper form of sword and buckler? Because it sure looks like they aren't.

I don't question that they do what they do fairly well, but it sure looks like FMA-based movementswith sword and buckler. Perhaps the took a seminar and bought a book or two and tried to incorporate that stuff for marketing purposes?

Odd the stances they're using, though. They seem to get really square and not move very fluidly. I'm not very familiar with FMA, though, and I only looked at the video once, so I could be wrong.

Jason

[Richard Strey]

I don't want to come across too harsh, but rather than talking about the fact that it might be EMA/WMA/MixMA, I'd focus on them not striking to the body, something that should be far more importantm, if you want to find out if they are "legitimate" or not.However, as always, it's difficult to discern what they are doing from such a short video that comes without explaination. It might be a flow-drill, in which case not striking towards the body could be okay. If it's a relative slow-motion freefight, it would be a major fault. Who knows?

[John_Clements]

I predicted back in 2001 that we'd see this kind o fthing eventually happen.

One is forced to ask, what is the purpose of reinventing S&B as a non-historically accurate modern amalgam style???

Sigh...

[Rod-Thornton]

I predicted back in 2001 that we'd see this kind o fthing eventually happen.

One is forced to ask, what is the purpose of reinventing S&B as a non-historically accurate modern amalgam style???

Sigh...

That purpose seems obvious....take a look at their tuition costs ($cha-ching) to learn their "defensive & attack katas" among other things...and note how the program is expressely notated as open to anyone at "any fitness level." -I like how the ARMA stays true to the notion of learning truly WMA & its heritage despite the significant experiences a number of our members have in EMA without feeling a need to fill in with those EMA skills for what we have not yet learned or figured out in WMA.

(I was also amused to think about trying to fence some of the guys in my study group like Shane & Matt armed only with lessons that practice something this site calls a "defensive" kata)

[Will Adamson]

(I was also amused to think about trying to fence some of the guys in my study group like Shane & Matt armed only with lessons that practice something this site calls a "defensive" kata)

If they have a one mile running away kata that might work.

This seems even worse than the Raleigh school.

[Sam Nankivell]

As you may guess by looking at the Youtube post, I have been posting this guy for an answer to which Western Techniques he uses, all while defending against other posters telling me how hybrid systems are obviously superior and to stop "bashing" this guy because of my "jealousy" for his ultimately "superior" martial art.

I can accept the fact that I may have made some biting remarks, but I just want an answer. So far, I have apologized for making some inappropriate comments. But honestly, his first response to my inquiry was to ask why I haven't "posted my skills" and to tell me to stop hiding behind a pseudonym and spar with him. Until then, he tells me to just agree to disagree.

I detect not a single hint of a proper answer.

Any recommendation on how to politely respond and deal with him? I really do not want to seem like a jerk.

[Tony_Indurante]

Sam,

I'd probably just say that since what he is doing is not actual RMA he probably shouldn't bill it as such. Why would he need to confuse folks with what he is doing?

As for sparring with him, well that's a great way to find out if he is just talking out his rectum or not- however, that will depend entirely on your skill level. If you are a novice, then he probably kicks your ass and talks smack all over the internet. If you kick his, you hear excuse after excuse. Or he is an honorable man and admits that his art is primarily EMA with some of the tools from RMA thrown in for looks. Nothing wrong with that- just don't try to BS folks.

That's my opinion.

[Sam Nankivell]

Perhaps this article deserves it's own thread, but I think it relates to this thread quite well.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=78016

On a side note, Brother's At Arms seems to really detest Sword Forum International. I find it amusing when a small eclectic group finds a large and well renowned group like Sword Forum International to be "amateurish with an abundance of ego and testosterone". Yes clearly a group of experts from around the globe are no match compared to your "McCarthy Sensei".

I gotta say though, this argument on YouTube is getting quite tedious and has frankly ground to a stalemate. So far all they have been doing is asking me who I am and how I could possibly match up to the skill of their instructors (Apparently, McCarthy Sensei, in addition to being an 8th Dan Hanshi in Ryukyu Karate, is well versed in grappling, boxing, stick/knife-fighting, horsemanship and archery. Clearly giving him the necessary skills to run a school about "Western Swordsmanship"). All this while completely ignoring my arguments. This has got to be the worst case of repeated Argumentum Ad Hominem I have ever seen. At this point, I just want to go on to something more productive. Like seeing if I can cut bricks in half with a rapier.

On another sidenote, I present to you this:

" Dear Joshikarate, thanks for the heads up on who these people are. They're representing western martial arts? How sad. Makes me think of Go Kan Ryu! How about that Bob dork? How pathetic is that "demo" at the castle in Northumberland? And he wants a piece of McCarthy Sensei? OMG :-0"

Yes, this is about a member of the European Swordsmanship forum in Sword Forum International. Sad, just sad.

[Tony_Indurante]

Why are you bothering to argue with them?

I'm not a fan of Sword Forum, but that is because I don't like weeding my way through all the drek on there to find info that is actually...informative.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"Apparently, McCarthy Sensei, in addition to being an 8th Dan Hanshi in Ryukyu Karate, is well versed in grappling, boxing, stick/knife-fighting, horsemanship and archery"

Which makes him more than qualified to be an EMA instructor in Ryukyu Karate. Heck, for all I know the guy could be a very good fighter (or not). But that doesn't make what they are doing a WMA based curriculum. The issue here is not the skill or not of the McCarthy Sensei, but rather is what they are teaching a WMA base or an EMA/JKD flavor mix. Truth in advertising. I can say with certainty that the ARMA program is WMA based. I can't honestly call myself a Kendoka just because I train with a sword.

[Jason Taylor]

As you may guess by looking at the Youtube post, I have been posting this guy for an answer to which Western Techniques he uses, all while defending against other posters telling me how hybrid systems are obviously superior and to stop "bashing" this guy because of my "jealousy" for his ultimately "superior" martial art.

I can accept the fact that I may have made some biting remarks, but I just want an answer. So far, I have apologized for making some inappropriate comments. But honestly, his first response to my inquiry was to ask why I haven't "posted my skills" and to tell me to stop hiding behind a pseudonym and spar with him. Until then, he tells me to just agree to disagree.

I detect not a single hint of a proper answer.

Any recommendation on how to politely respond and deal with him? I really do not want to seem like a jerk.

Ah, yes. The True Believer. The martial artist who knows--just *knows*--that all others will fall before his mighty and infallible Art. The Art that can do nothing wrong, that is technically, philosophically, practically, etc. superior and more virtuous than all other arts in the world put together.

This guy is clearly 1) a True Believer (and more importantly, all of his students probably are) and 2) a guy with an ego on him. Whether that ego is justified, who knows. But I find that the truly awesome martial artists I've met simply tell you "Hey, this is what I did. This is the construction of the style. And furthermore, I really don't care what you think about it." Not "What? You question my superiority in battle? I must destroy you in sparring to prove my dominance!" It's alpha-male crap, and really, probably better for you just to step out of and forget about. I personally think ARMA has the real deal for this stuff, and it kind of brings us down to his level to engage him in argument about it. He's obviously not going to answer you, since he doesn't want to, and he'll keep up the alpha-male dominance thing so you look like you're afraid of him or some such to all his students.

One of my old EMA instructors could have destroyed him out of hand, IMO, but that guy would probably have responded less, or not at all, to similar questions about his personal style. The fact that the BiA guy responded belligerently, to me, says a lot.

I'd say let it go and move on.