Arming Sword and Shield vs. Longsword, Low Guard Counter.

[Sam Nankivell]

Personally, I am primarily a longsword user, as is my friend. However, I have noticed that when he goes against people wielding arming sword & shield, he simply drops into a low stance (usually some variation of the fool's guard) and starts slicing away at their shins. This tactic seems to work EVERY time, heck, its even starting to work on other longsword users like myself.

I was just wondering, how do you counter someone who simply remains in a low guard, without getting impaled or shin-sliced. There's got to be some way, because the manuals sure don't show a bunch of people just running around crouched low to the ground trying to bat at each other's shins.

[Seth Halsell]

Hello there sam. One thing I was thinking about when I read your post was a similar situation that happened at our study group while we were practicing free sparring with padded weapons. One of the guys wanted to try the arming sword & shield and I chose a longsword. I practice with both the arming sword & shield as well as the longsword at home. I had sparred against the guy using the sword and shield before and he is really good at longsword but I do not believe he does as much work with the sword and shield yet. He wanted to try out the combination for this reason. I did not use the full position as your friend did but I did use the tail. I let the guy come close to me and when he did I went for his calf and got him. We tried another round and again I got him in the calf. What I thought was interesting though watching him was his apparent confusion at trying the new weapon combination. Usually when we spar he would use a longsword which he is very good at. I would try exactly what I said above. I would drop into either the left tail or the right and try and do a rising cut (A Untterhau? I believe its called. Where you start from say the left tail and then strike up into the right ox position). Here is the difference however that I noticed. When he had a longsword and I tried this move he would simply just take a passing step backwards and I would miss him. He would then quickly counter before I could recover and get me on my back or arm that I had swung at him with. For what ever reason he seemed to forget this technique when he had the sword and shield in hand.
Usually when I spar with the sword and shield I try and simply take a passing step backwards when someone tries and goes for my legs. The reason I do this is so that way when they miss I am still in a position to counter attack. If I am caught off guard however I may drop my shield to block the low attack but only if I was caught off guard and didn't react fast enough to simply just get out of the way of the strike by pass stepping back. I can honestly say that at least in our study group when someone takes a passing step back when the opponent goes for your legs works it seems to work because when the person who swung for the legs misses they will have to recover and if they do not recover (When I say recover I am refering to moving your blade back into a ready stance position after having swung it) fast enough they leave themselves open for a counter attack. I have fortuntly and unfortuntly been on both the giving and recieving end of this matter. I've swung and people have took a passing step out of range of my attack and quickly counter attacked to hit me on the arms or back when I was recovering and like wise I have took a pass step back and countered to get them as well. So to answer your question in a most direct manner....try closing in on your friend there and try and get him to swing at your lower leg. When he does however be in the mind set to take a passing step backwards out of his range which will make him miss and then force him to recover. When he is trying to recover (moving from when he swung to back into a ready position) strike him before he can do so.

[Sam Nankivell]

Thanks for the advice. I have one question though, wouldn't the longsword be able to recover before the arming sword & shield guy can get in range?

[Seth Halsell]

Your welcome Sam. It depends on whos quicker and who has practiced this more. Some people are quick to recover after they have took a swing and some are not. If the person with the sword and shield just takes one passing step to get out of range they will just have to take one passing step forward while they strike to be back in range. So it really just depends whos quicker realizing the circumstance of the situation. Will it be the guy with the sword and shield who needs to counter attack after the one with the long sword has swung or will it be the person who has swung with the longsword who needs to recover quickly so he doesn't get hit? That is a question I believe that can only really be decided with the individual's reaction time which is a matter of practice.

[Jason Taylor]

Personally, I am primarily a longsword user, as is my friend. However, I have noticed that when he goes against people wielding arming sword & shield, he simply drops into a low stance (usually some variation of the fool's guard) and starts slicing away at their shins. This tactic seems to work EVERY time, heck, its even starting to work on other longsword users like myself.

I was just wondering, how do you counter someone who simply remains in a low guard, without getting impaled or shin-sliced. There's got to be some way, because the manuals sure don't show a bunch of people just running around crouched low to the ground trying to bat at each other's shins.

Seems to me like there also, historically speaking, might be an element of survivability here. We mostly train by playing to single points around here, the idea being that if you get nailed, you're probably down for the count. However, nobody wants to trade a low shin slice for getting stabbed in the face or having their head taken. Since his blade stays low, another longsword, at least, has a pretty good chance of getting one of those deathblow-like attacks in, even if he does hit their leg. Depending on how much power is involved, you might be trading a nasty cut for a mortal wound--I don't know how your friend is playing, so I can't judge that. But if he's slicing fast and in rapid succession, I doubt he's going to lop a shin all the way through--that kind of thing takes some focused striking power.

Again, one of the problems inherent with weapons sparring in general--and an unavoidable one--is that you know you'll walk away from whatever it is you get hit with. So opening up your head and neck for extended periods becomes feasible. Not so much when both opponents have sharp steel and one screw-up on your part means you're done for. So we have to consciously ask ourselves, "Would I really have done that if my life had been on the line." We should still experiment, of course, but a healthy doese of "reality check" helps us come to a greater understanding of the art.

Jason

[Greg Coffman]

This seems to be a question of range. When the openings are divided horizantaly at the waist, the upper openings are much closer than the lower openings. When the openings are divided at the sholders, the openings are equally close and the angle of the attack makes the difference.

The legs are farther away than say the head and shoulders. The sword and arms reach from the shoulders. If you strike out at someone's head then you are extending towards that person in the shortest distance between you and him(or her). If you strike down towards the legs then you are extending at a diagonal. Does that make sense?

With two longswords of comparable length, the person who strikes to the legs has a reach disadvantage which keeps these strikes from dominating. With sword and buckler against longsword, the reach advantage of the longsword allows these strikes without being in as much risk from the range of the one handed sword.

Additionally, the buckler can only drop down to cover so much of the leg. Depinding on the size of the buckler, I can normally only protect down to my knee. The sword may be used to ward against strikes to the shin. One can void the attack my stepping back, as has already been reccomended, or to either side. One can step forward aggressively and pre empt the strike by placing the buckler on the crossguard of the opposing sword.

From what I have seen most often, a strike to the legs of someone using a buckler is just to keep the person away. The one handed swordsman must get in close and the longsword fighter wants to keep him back. But someone with a buckler must learn how to cover his or her legs. The legs are a prime target when fighting the buckler. I would guess that in your case the people are just not used to the sword and buckler of they are not used to covering their legs in general.

[Greg Coffman]

Oh, your original question was how to counter this technique.

With the longsword, control time and distance so that his strike to your legs falls short but you can still hit indes with an overhand or such to either his head shoulders or arms, which should be extended in swing. If you know he is going to do it then wait for it. Of course, you can also use a guard to cover your legs such as shrankhut(sp?), alber, or iron door.

With the sword and buckler, when he strikes, his head and shoulders may still be out of range but his hands won't be. Keep your distance so his strike falls short but strike indes at his hand.

With either sword and buckler you can also use your sword to clear his away and then counter strike.

Another technique with the longsword: cut from right tail indes(assuming he is striking from his right as well) with a low underhau to intercept his blade. As you make contact, continue by bringing your sword up to left ochs with your point at his chest, then thrust. A step offline helps too.

[Stacy Clifford]

If you've got a shield or buckler against a longsword, one of the best things you can do with it is press, stifle, harass and crowd the longsword and try to make contact with his strong if you can, at which point he's got to make too big a motion to get off your shield and attack you before you get him with your free sword hand. Aggressively go after his sword with your shield or otherwise close in enough to where your legs are less tempting targets and your sword is a more immediate threat. If you know he's going to snipe at your legs first, stay just out of range and defend until he gets tired of missing and tries something else, then go in after him.